Legislature(2001 - 2002)

04/27/2001 02:00 PM FIN

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                  HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE                                                                                       
                       April 27, 2001                                                                                           
                          2:00 PM                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
TAPE HFC 01 - 101, Side A                                                                                                       
TAPE HFC 01 - 101, Side B                                                                                                       
TAPE HFC 01 - 102, Side A                                                                                                       
TAPE HFC 01 - 102, Side B                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CALL TO ORDER                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Williams called the House  Finance Committee meeting                                                                   
to order at 2:00 PM.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Eldon Mulder, Co-Chair                                                                                           
Representative Bill Williams, Co-Chair                                                                                          
Representative Con Bunde, Vice-Chair                                                                                            
Representative Eric Croft                                                                                                       
Representative John Davies                                                                                                      
Representative Carl Moses                                                                                                       
Representative Richard Foster                                                                                                   
Representative John Harris                                                                                                      
Representative Bill Hudson                                                                                                      
Representative Ken Lancaster                                                                                                    
Representative Jim Whitaker                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
None                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
ALSO PRESENT                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Mike Tibbles,  Staff, Representative Williams;  Spencer Wood,                                                                   
U.S.  Coast Guard;  Chris  Daugherty, Legal  Assistant,  U.S.                                                                   
Coast Guard;  Representative Beth Kerttula;  Gretchen Kaiser,                                                                   
Staff, Representative  Kertulla;  Diane, McBride, Homer;  Amy                                                                   
Crook,  Center  for  Science  in  Public  Participation;  Sue                                                                   
Schrader, Alaska  Conservation Voters; Aurah  Landau, Juneau;                                                                   
Danielle Brown,  Juneau; Robert  Reges, Cruise Control  Inc.,                                                                   
Juneau; Randy Ray, US Cruise Ship Association;                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
PRESENT VIA TELECONFERENCE                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
John Hansen,  President, Northwest  Cruise Line  Association;                                                                   
Al Parish; Bill  Satterberg, Attorney; Tim June,  Lynne Canal                                                                   
Conservation  Council;  Joe  Lebeau,  Mat-Su;  Rion  Schmidt,                                                                   
Cordova; Joanna Riechhold, Cordova;                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SUMMARY                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
HB 51     "An Act giving notice of and approving the entry                                                                      
          into, and the issuance of certificates of                                                                             
          participation  for, a lease-purchase  agreement for                                                                   
          a seafood and food safety  laboratory facility; and                                                                   
          providing for an effective date."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
          CSHB 51 (FIN) was REPORTED out of Committee with a                                                                    
          "do  pass" recommendation  and with two  previously                                                                   
          published  fiscal impact notes  (#1 and #2),  and a                                                                   
          new  fiscal  impact   note  by  the  Department  of                                                                   
          Revenue.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
HB 260    "An  Act  requiring  the  owners  or  operators  of                                                                   
          certain passenger  vessels operating in  the marine                                                                   
          waters  of  the  state  to  register  the  vessels;                                                                   
          establishing     information-gathering,      record                                                                   
          keeping,  and  reporting requirements  relating  to                                                                   
          the vessels' graywater  and sewage; prohibiting the                                                                   
          discharge  of  untreated  sewage from  the  vessels                                                                   
          unless  exempted; placing  limits on discharges  of                                                                   
          treated  sewage  and  graywater  from  the  vessels                                                                   
          unless   exempted;    establishing   a   commercial                                                                   
          passenger    vessel   coastal   protection    fund;                                                                   
          establishing   a   fee  on   commercial   passenger                                                                   
          vessels,  that are  not  exempt from  the fee,  for                                                                   
          each  voyage during  which the  vessels operate  in                                                                   
          the  marine  waters  of  the  state  based  on  the                                                                   
          overnight  accommodation  capacity  of the  vessels                                                                   
          determined  with reference to  the number  of lower                                                                   
          berths;  establishing   penalties  for  failure  to                                                                   
          comply with  certain laws relating to  the vessels;                                                                   
          authorizing   the   Department   of   Environmental                                                                   
          Conservation  to encourage  and recognize  superior                                                                   
          environmental   protection   efforts   related   to                                                                   
          commercial    passenger     vessels;    authorizing                                                                   
          exemptions  from some  laws relating to  discharges                                                                   
          from  the vessels  and  from the  fee  requirements                                                                   
          related  to the  vessels; requiring  a report  from                                                                   
          the   Department  of   Environmental   Conservation                                                                   
          concerning  matters  relating to  the vessels;  and                                                                   
          providing for an effective date."                                                                                     
HOUSE BILL NO. 51                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     "An Act giving  notice of and approving  the entry into,                                                                   
     and the  issuance of certificates of  participation for,                                                                   
     a  lease-purchase  agreement  for  a  seafood  and  food                                                                   
     safety  laboratory   facility;  and  providing   for  an                                                                   
     effective date."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MIKE  TIBBLES, STAFF,  REPRESENTATIVE  WILLIAMS reviewed  the                                                                   
proposed  committee substitute,  work  draft 22-LS  GH1012\C,                                                                   
Bannister, 4/27/01 (copy on file.)   He noted that there is a                                                                   
new  mechanism for  financing  and a  reduction  of the  bond                                                                   
issue  by $2  million  dollars.  He observed  that  equipment                                                                   
purchases  were   reduced  by  $375  thousand   dollars.  The                                                                   
reduction  included: $280  thousand dollars  in deferment  of                                                                   
ventilation  upgrades,  $200 thousand  dollars  (in  reduced)                                                                   
administrative  space, $115 in  (reductions) in  the shipping                                                                   
and  handling  area, $150  thousand  dollars  in other  space                                                                   
(reductions)  including  bathrooms   and  lockers,  and  $878                                                                   
thousand  dollars (reduction)  in  investment  income on  the                                                                   
sale  of the  bonds.  Debt service  was  also  reduced to  $1                                                                   
million dollars annually, subject to appropriation.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
In  response to  a  question  by Representative  Hudson,  Mr.                                                                   
Tibbles noted  that the  difference in  debt service  of $220                                                                   
thousand dollars  a year is  due to the  reduced size  of the                                                                   
sale of  the bonds,  from reductions  of the actual  facility                                                                   
and investment earnings.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Lancaster MOVED to  report CSHB 51  (FIN) out                                                                   
of Committee with  the accompanying fiscal note.  There being                                                                   
NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CSHB 51 (FIN) was REPORTED out  of Committee with a "do pass"                                                                   
recommendation  and  with  two  previously  published  fiscal                                                                   
impact notes  (#1 and #2),  and a new  fiscal impact  note by                                                                   
the Department of Revenue.                                                                                                      
HOUSE BILL NO. 260                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     "An  Act requiring  the owners or  operators of  certain                                                                   
     passenger vessels operating  in the marine waters of the                                                                   
     state    to   register    the   vessels;    establishing                                                                   
     information-gathering,  record  keeping,  and  reporting                                                                   
     requirements  relating  to  the vessels'  graywater  and                                                                   
     sewage;  prohibiting the  discharge of untreated  sewage                                                                   
     from  the vessels  unless  exempted;  placing limits  on                                                                   
     discharges  of treated  sewage  and  graywater from  the                                                                   
     vessels  unless  exempted;   establishing  a  commercial                                                                   
     passenger vessel  coastal protection fund;  establishing                                                                   
     a  fee on  commercial passenger  vessels,  that are  not                                                                   
     exempt from  the fee, for  each voyage during  which the                                                                   
     vessels operate in the marine  waters of the state based                                                                   
     on the  overnight accommodation capacity of  the vessels                                                                   
     determined  with  reference   to  the  number  of  lower                                                                   
     berths;  establishing penalties  for  failure to  comply                                                                   
     with certain  laws relating to the  vessels; authorizing                                                                   
     the   Department   of  Environmental   Conservation   to                                                                   
     encourage    and   recognize   superior    environmental                                                                   
     protection  efforts  related   to  commercial  passenger                                                                   
     vessels; authorizing exemptions  from some laws relating                                                                   
     to  discharges  from  the   vessels  and  from  the  fee                                                                   
     requirements related to the  vessels; requiring a report                                                                   
     from  the   Department  of  Environmental   Conservation                                                                   
     concerning   matters  relating   to  the  vessels;   and                                                                   
     providing for an effective date."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SPENCER  WOOD,   LIEUTENANT  COMMANDER,   U.S.  COAST   GUARD                                                                   
provided  information on  the legislation.  He noted  that he                                                                   
has  been involved  with the  Alaska  Cruise Ship  initiative                                                                   
since its  inception. He is  the co-chair of  the Wastewater-                                                                   
Working   Group   with  the   Department   of   Environmental                                                                   
Conservation. The  Coast Guard has tried to  assess potential                                                                   
conflicts  with  existing  federal  law  and  the  regulatory                                                                   
package developed  to implement  Title 14. No  conflicts with                                                                   
federal regulation were found in HB 260.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Mulder  asked if  Senator  Murkowski's  legislation                                                                   
contains provisions for the Coast  Guard to implement testing                                                                   
and monitoring  of vessel  discharges. Commander  Wood stated                                                                   
that there are provisions for  vessel monitoring and observed                                                                   
that they  are not in conflict  with HB 260. Title  14 allows                                                                   
the  Coast Guard  to develop  sampling  protocol. A  sampling                                                                   
regime is not specified.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Mulder observed  that some questions  have  come up                                                                   
regarding the absence  of the term "pollutants"  in the bill.                                                                   
He asked  what discharges  would not be  covered by  state or                                                                   
federal law  with the addition  of the legislation.  Mr. Wood                                                                   
stated that he did not know of  any discharges that would not                                                                   
be covered.  He added that  graywater would be  covered under                                                                   
Title  14.  He  acknowledged  that  Title  14  is  silent  on                                                                   
graywater beyond a  mile and with a speed of  six knots other                                                                   
than provision for the Environmental  Protection Agency (EPA)                                                                   
to establish standards beyond that distance.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Mulder  noted  that  claims  have  been  made  that                                                                   
violations  such   as  those  that  occurred   by  the  Royal                                                                   
Caribbean  Cruise Lines  would  be left  uncovered. Mr.  Wood                                                                   
clarified  that  under  federal  discharge  standards  it  is                                                                   
illegal  for any  vessel to  discharge  hazardous waste  into                                                                   
U.S. waters. He  observed that the Resource  Conservation and                                                                   
Recovery Act (RCRA) covers the  discharge of hazardous waste.                                                                   
Co-Chair  Mulder noted  that  there are  extensive  recording                                                                   
provisions under RCRA.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative  John  Davies asked  questions  regarding  the                                                                   
reports  required  under  RCRA.   Commander  Wood  could  not                                                                   
provided  details on  the reporting  provisions. He  observed                                                                   
that it is an EPA standard and EPA report.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Davies   referred  to  the   Royal  Caribbean                                                                   
violation. Commander Wood reviewed  the Coast Guard's role in                                                                   
the situation. He observed that  the violation stretched over                                                                   
waters in  Alaska and Florida  and included the  discharge of                                                                   
hazardous substance and oil. The  company was fined for lying                                                                   
to  the Coast  Guard  and for  inadequate  record keeping.  A                                                                   
trail behind  the vessel  was spotted from  the air  by night                                                                   
with   an   airfield  surveillance   radar   system   (FLUR).                                                                   
Inspectors  boarded the  vessel and questioned  the  crew and                                                                   
photographed the  piping systems aboard the  vessel. When the                                                                   
vessel  came  into Florida  inspectors  discovered  that  the                                                                   
piping had been changed.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative  John Davies  asked  if the  U.S. Coast  Guard                                                                   
routinely  monitor cruise  ships  in Alaskan  waters  through                                                                   
sampling  or routine  inspections.  Mr.  Wood explained  that                                                                   
ships  are inspected  quarterly.  The  primary  focus on  the                                                                   
vessel  is  the  inspection of  safety  equipment.  About  20                                                                   
percent  of  their  effort  is  involved  with  environmental                                                                   
compliance.  The record  book,  the water/oil  separator  and                                                                   
marine sanitation  devises are checked. As a  result of Title                                                                   
14  regulations have  been drafted  for  compliance with  all                                                                   
environmental law.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative Davies  observed that regulations  address the                                                                   
requirement for  equipment, without sampling, to  assure that                                                                   
the  equipment  is  functioning   correctly.  Commander  Wood                                                                   
agreed.  Representative Davies  questioned who  would do  the                                                                   
sampling  under the  new  sampling protocol.  Commander  Wood                                                                   
noted that  the cruise industry  would be required to  hire a                                                                   
third party contractor approved by the Coast Guard.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
In  response   to  a   question  by  Representative   Hudson,                                                                   
Commander  Wood  discussed  the approval  process  of  marine                                                                   
sanitation devises  under 46.CFR. Equipment must  be designed                                                                   
so that  38 of 40  samples drawn over  a 10-day  period would                                                                   
meet a standard  of no more  than 200 fecal coliform  and 150                                                                   
total  suspended   solids.  The  Coast  Guard   oversees  the                                                                   
construction  of vessels and  the installation of  equipment.                                                                   
Once  the  system   is  installed  there  are   regular  spot                                                                   
examinations.  Samples  are  not  used to  ascertain  if  the                                                                   
equipment is  meeting the design  standard. The  equipment is                                                                   
viewed  in   regards  to  changes   that  might   affect  its                                                                   
functionality.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative Hudson questioned  the penalties for discharge                                                                   
of pollutants  under federal law.  Commander Wood  noted that                                                                   
there are criminal  penalties for pollution depending  on the                                                                   
intent and the amount discharged in U.S. waters.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
In response  to a question  by Representative  Lancaster, Co-                                                                   
Chair Mulder  noted that  the legislation  does not  apply to                                                                   
vessels  of under 50  passengers. Commander  Wood noted  that                                                                   
laws regarding  marine sanitation devises pertain  to vessels                                                                   
of under 50 passengers. There is no other oversight.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Davies  asked  if   the  U.S.  Coast   Guard                                                                   
supervises  the  construction  of  foreign  flagged  vessels.                                                                   
Commander Wood explained that  a marine safety center reviews                                                                   
plans and  build outs for ships,  which are operating  in the                                                                   
United States.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative Davies  asked for the result  of marine safety                                                                   
inspections  that occurred  in the year  2000 cruise  season.                                                                   
Commander  Wood noted  that 15 vessels  exceed the  standards                                                                   
for  fecal coliform.  Only  5 of  these  ships were  reviewed                                                                   
before they left  Alaskan waters in order to  address why the                                                                   
standards were exceeded.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  BETH KERTULLA  testified  in  support of  the                                                                   
legislation.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     When  I  was a  child,  my  mother  wouldn't let  me  go                                                                   
     downtown  alone  past  the  clock  on  Franklin  Street.                                                                   
     Today, in part  because of the cruise industry,  we have                                                                   
     a beautiful,  safe downtown,  and an important  economic                                                                   
     base  for  Juneau and  for  the  rest  of the  state.  I                                                                   
     understand  the need to cooperate  and to  work together                                                                   
     for resolution  of issues, and  I have worked  very hard                                                                   
     to  do that  along with  many, many  other people.  That                                                                   
     work has taken  a good deal of time during  the last two                                                                   
     years, and  some days it's felt  like it has been  a lot                                                                   
     longer than  two years. But  again it has not  been just                                                                   
     me  working.  It  has  been   many,  many  people.  From                                                                   
     community  members  to  DEC   to  the  Governor  to  the                                                                   
     industry, to the Coast Guard.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Kerttula stressed the  need for our  state to                                                                   
regulate  the cruise  ship industry  She noted  that she  has                                                                   
some serious problems with the legislation.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Kerttula  expressed   disagreement  with  the                                                                   
House Majority Press Release:                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
      In  HB  260,  Alaska  establishes   its  own  discharge                                                                   
      standards,  demands the  cruise  ship industry  monitor                                                                   
      and report  on its compliance,  and requires it  to pay                                                                   
      the costs  of making sure  the clean waters  folks come                                                                   
      north to enjoy remain clean.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Kerttula  maintained   that  the  legislation                                                                   
completely  cedes  state  authority   to  establish  its  own                                                                   
graywater discharge standards  to the federal government (the                                                                   
EPA). She  noted that HB  260 says that  Alaska will  live by                                                                   
whatever  graywater standard  EPA defines,  if and when  that                                                                   
happens. Until  then, HB 260 sets  a standard that  begins in                                                                   
2003. She asserted  that this delegation of  authority to EPA                                                                   
probably isn't legal,  and stated that she could  not imagine                                                                   
why  we would  "ever, give  up our  right to  create our  own                                                                   
laws,  which   is  something  U.S.  Senator   Murkowski  made                                                                   
completely clear that  we have an absolute right  to do under                                                                   
his recent federal  legislation". She stressed  that Alaskans                                                                   
have a right to know what is happening in their waters.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Kerttula referred  to the demand on the cruise                                                                   
industry  to  monitor  and  report  on  its  compliance.  She                                                                   
stressed the distinction  between what goes to  the state and                                                                   
what goes  to the federal government  and how easy it  is for                                                                   
each  to compliment,  cooperate  and coordinate  information.                                                                   
She observed  that her bill (HB  22) and the  Governor's bill                                                                   
(HB 183)  completely cover  the monitoring  and reporting  of                                                                   
pollutants.  She  observed  that   HB  260  has  removed  the                                                                   
comprehensive definition  of "pollutant" to  limit monitoring                                                                   
and  reporting  to only  treated  sewage and  graywater.  She                                                                   
emphasized  that treated  sewage  and graywater  are not  the                                                                   
only substances coming off of cruise ships.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     We  should  be monitoring  and  the industry  should  be                                                                   
     reporting again  to the state (as is required  in HB 22)                                                                   
     on all biological materials,  chemical wastes, hazardous                                                                   
     substances,  hazardous  waste,   industrial  waste,  and                                                                   
     other types of waste streams.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     You may  hear that this  is unnecessary because  none of                                                                   
     these substances are a problem.  Fine. If they aren't it                                                                   
     should  not be  much of  an  issue for  the industry  to                                                                   
     report and DEC  to monitor. But we deserve  the right to                                                                   
     know,  the fundamental right  for the  state to  get the                                                                   
     information, and  not just to know about  treated sewage                                                                   
     and a watered down definition  of graywater that doesn't                                                                   
     include these other waste streams.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Kerttula  observed that the industry  has hair                                                                   
salons, photo labs, medical care,  and dry cleaners on board.                                                                   
She  maintained that  the  state should  not,  as a  starting                                                                   
point, give up the right to know  what is in any discharge or                                                                   
offloading from industry vessels.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Kerttula asserted  that, concerning monitoring                                                                   
and  reporting, HB  260 took  a  step backward  when it  used                                                                   
language from  an old CS  for House  Bill 22 that  except for                                                                   
exemptions, completely shackles  DEC's authority to implement                                                                   
regulations to deal with monitoring  and reporting. She noted                                                                   
that the  committee staff  has an  amendment to correct  this                                                                   
error.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative Kerttula observed  that there is a huge debate                                                                   
about  paying  the costs  of  making  sure Alaska  has  clean                                                                   
water. House Bill 260 requires  some fees. She referred to an                                                                   
amendment that  would correct the problem of  fee collections                                                                   
by   the  Department   of  Environmental   Conservation   and                                                                   
understood  that  the  Committee   would  introduce  it.  She                                                                   
emphasized  that the  legislation  with  the amendment  would                                                                   
still only pertain to sewage and graywater.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Kerttula discussed  her  other concerns  with                                                                   
the legislation:                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     The bill  drops an inexpensive, non-litigation  sanction                                                                   
     for  failing  to  register,  it is  ambiguous  as  to  a                                                                   
     definition  of  inland waters,  it  excludes  negotiated                                                                   
     rulemaking...  it   fails  to  deal  at   all  with  air                                                                   
     emissions. If HB 22, or the Governor's bill, HB 183,                                                                       
     were before you, these issues would either be resolved,                                                                    
     or could be readily dealt with.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft  asked where  cruise  ships winter.  He                                                                   
noted that  there is  a fundamental  difference in  Southeast                                                                   
Alaskan  waters   and  the   Caribbean  in  relationship   to                                                                   
filtering of  pollutants. He  suggested that this  difference                                                                   
would require different solutions.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Kertulla  noted   that   the  "dilution   of                                                                   
pollution is the  solution" is a saying at  the Department of                                                                   
Environmental  Conservation.   She  referred  to  the  unique                                                                   
construction of the Alexander strait.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative John  Davies referred to the  state's right to                                                                   
know.  Representative  Kertulla noted  that  she has  history                                                                   
with regulation and permitting  through her previous job as a                                                                   
deputy  attorney general  for resource  issues. She  observed                                                                   
that  no  other  industry  is   allowed  to  operate  without                                                                   
regulation.  She felt  that the  industry  would support  the                                                                   
state's  right  to know  and  noted  that industry  has  been                                                                   
working  with  the state  to  get information.  Industry  has                                                                   
stepped up to the plate on many of these issues.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative  John Davies asked  if there  are gaps  in the                                                                   
information  being   collected  by  the  U.S.   Coast  Guard.                                                                   
Representative  Kerttulla  noted  that  there  is  a  limited                                                                   
definition  of graywater  under  federal regulation.  Federal                                                                   
law  would  not  report  on  biological  materials,  chemical                                                                   
wastes,  hazardous  substances, hazardous  waste,  industrial                                                                   
waste, incinerator  residue, medical  waste, munitions,  oil,                                                                   
radioactive materials. She acknowledged  that it might not be                                                                   
a huge issue. She observed that  the industry would only have                                                                   
to report that they do not have  these substances on board or                                                                   
that they are held and off loaded in Canada.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
TAPE HFC 01 - 101, Side B                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative John Davies maintained  that it is appropriate                                                                   
to have different state and federal regulatory conditions.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative Hudson  observed that no discharge  is allowed                                                                   
unless  the vessel  is underway  at  6 knots  and inside  one                                                                   
mile.  He  summarized  that  there   would  be  no  discharge                                                                   
permitted in the  inside passage. He questioned  if pollutant                                                                   
discharges  have been  detected,  such as  suspended  solids.                                                                   
Representative  Kerttulla acknowledged  that it is  difficult                                                                   
to tell and emphasized that there  is not enough information.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
GRETCHEN  KAISER,  STAFF, REPRESENTATIVE  KERTULLA  clarified                                                                   
that some of last summer's samples  of graywater identified 5                                                                   
or  6  heavy  metals  and  other  substances.  Representative                                                                   
Kerttulla acknowledged that they were not cited.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
In  response  to  a question  by  Representative  Croft,  Ms.                                                                   
Kaiser  noted  that HB  260  referenced  Senator  Murkowski's                                                                   
federal legislation, which allows  a vessel to drop below the                                                                   
fecal coliform  and total  suspended solids  standard  in the                                                                   
federal legislation  if they have  better equipment  that can                                                                   
process their waste to a higher  standard. If they can meet a                                                                   
more stringent standard they are  able to discharge less than                                                                   
one mile from shore at less than 6 knots.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative Croft  referred to section (d).  He questioned                                                                   
if  the   legislation  would   prevent  discharge   of  photo                                                                   
chemicals. Representative Kerttulla  did not know and pointed                                                                   
out that it is not treated sewage.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
JOHN  HANSEN, PRESIDENT,  NORTHWEST  CRUISE LINE  ASSOCIATION                                                                   
testified  via teleconference.  He noted  that there  are six                                                                   
principles  that should  be incorporated  into  any piece  of                                                                   
legislation.  Firstly, the  legislation  should be  carefully                                                                   
crafted in order to avoid ambiguity  and overlap with federal                                                                   
legislation  or  existing  state   law.  Secondly,  standards                                                                   
expected     of    the  industry     should    be     clearly                                                                   
established.  A timeline to  meet graywater standards  should                                                                   
also be  included. Thirdly, there  should be clear  penalties                                                                   
for breech. Fourthly,  there should be provisions  for record                                                                   
keeping with records  available to the state.  Fifthly, there                                                                   
should be a  program of monitoring and testing.  Sixthly, the                                                                   
industry should  pay for reasonable monitoring,  testing, and                                                                   
research,  which are  consistent with  industry practice.  He                                                                   
observed that HB 22 met the principles  and he had previously                                                                   
spoken  in  its  support  (before  the  House  Transportation                                                                   
Committee).  He  added  that  HB  260  appears  to  meet  the                                                                   
principles and  provides some  additional features such  as a                                                                   
fee schedule to  pay for monitoring, testing  and research, a                                                                   
process to  issue variances, fees  to fund capacity  studies,                                                                   
and programs to  recognize excellence. He stated  that HB 260                                                                   
would  give better  protection  (than HB  22). He  maintained                                                                   
that their goal is to meet standards.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
In  response to  a question  by Co-Chair  Mulder, Mr.  Hansen                                                                   
clarified  that  the  industry  is  voluntarily  retrofitting                                                                   
ships. He added  that a number of ships would  be fitted with                                                                   
a new  technology to treat  black-water and graywater  beyond                                                                   
standards  in the  legislation.  He observed  that there  has                                                                   
been  a  great  deal  of  sharing  of  information  regarding                                                                   
successful equipment.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Mulder noted that standards  must be met by 2003. He                                                                   
questioned if  the timetable is reasonable  for retrofitting.                                                                   
Mr.  Hansen thought  that  the cruise  lines  could meet  the                                                                   
standard for graywater in the timeframe.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
In response  to a question  by Representative  Lancaster, Mr.                                                                   
Hansen  explained  that  a variety  of  technology  is  being                                                                   
developed, including ultra violet.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative  John Davies  observed  that  HB 22  contained                                                                   
reporting on  pollutants and wastes  that are not  covered in                                                                   
HB 260.  Mr. Hansen maintained  that the Coast  Guard already                                                                   
requires  reporting.  He  asserted  that the  data  would  be                                                                   
available to the state.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative  John Davies asked  if there is  a requirement                                                                   
in HB  260 for  the Coast Guard  data to  be reported  to the                                                                   
state of Alaska. He maintained  that the state should have an                                                                   
independent    requirement   for    the   information,    but                                                                   
acknowledged that  the information could be  coordinated. The                                                                   
sampling data and report could  be provided to both entities.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Hudson  recalled  that Mr.  Hansen  indicated                                                                   
that a  number of the  ships would use  shore power  while in                                                                   
Juneau.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Hansen clarified  that there would be five  Princess line                                                                   
ships that  would plug  into shore  power during the  current                                                                   
year.  There would  be no  propulsion  engines or  generators                                                                   
opertating  during  this  time.   Two  ships  would  use  gas                                                                   
turbines instead  of diesel for the main  propulsion systems.                                                                   
Diesel systems in other ships  are being improved. Most ships                                                                   
would  have  stack  monitors  for  visible  emissions  and  a                                                                   
television monitor pointed at the stack.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Mulder  noted  that   these  steps  are  voluntary.                                                                   
Representative Hudson asked if  the industry is under-writing                                                                   
a program to monitor outside of their companies.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Hansen  noted that a program  was started last  August to                                                                   
monitor ambient air  quality. The data was made  available to                                                                   
the Environmental Protection Agency.  There was not a problem                                                                   
from an ambient air standpoint.  Monitors are being placed at                                                                   
higher and  lower elevations.  The total  cost would  be $130                                                                   
thousand  dollars   for  the  season.  Monitoring   would  be                                                                   
continued during the winter months to provide a baseline.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Mulder questioned  if any other  state requires  as                                                                   
strict a  standard as  proscribed in HB  260. Mr.  Hansen was                                                                   
not aware  of any  other state  with strict standards,  which                                                                   
were as strict.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
TIM  JUNE, LYNNE  CANAL  CONSERVATION COUNCIL  testified  via                                                                   
teleconference. He  asked the Committee  to support HB  22 or                                                                   
the Governor's  bill. He maintained  that a revocable  clause                                                                   
is  needed  to deny  entry  of  multiple offenders  into  the                                                                   
state.  He observed  that  the judicial  problem  has been  a                                                                   
barrier  to regulation  of the  industry.  The permit  system                                                                   
would be similar to (the one used  in) Glacier Bay. Convicted                                                                   
felons are not  allowed to operate within the  park boundary.                                                                   
He observed that  the Royal Caribbean Cruise  Line was barred                                                                   
for 5 years  after their violations.  He stressed  that ships                                                                   
should meet Alaskan water quality  standards, just like other                                                                   
industries  that operate  in the state.  He recommended  that                                                                   
that the  Alaskan public  deserves third party  verification.                                                                   
The public has an interest in  protecting the resource in the                                                                   
state.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  June  discussed   the  Royal  Caribbean   violation.  He                                                                   
asserted that industry engineers  routinely referred to their                                                                   
logbooks  as fairy  tale books  in  Norwegian. He  maintained                                                                   
that third party  monitoring is essential. The  first testing                                                                   
by the state  of Alaska in the  year 2000 showed a  number of                                                                   
violations. There  are a number of things that  have not been                                                                   
tested  for,  such as  toxicity.  This  is a  concern.  Their                                                                   
primary question  is: are  the discharges  toxic in  a marine                                                                   
environment?  There are  no  testing plans.  The  legislation                                                                   
also fails to  look at elevated chemical oxygen  demand (COD)                                                                   
levels.  Elevated  COD  levels  were found  in  the  previous                                                                   
years. There were  few tests in the year 2000  and tests that                                                                   
were done  were inconclusive and  incomplete. He  referred to                                                                   
waste  streams.  The  legislation  looks at  gray  and  black                                                                   
water. They have  requested testing of all discharges  by the                                                                   
industry. He referred  to the question: Why  should state and                                                                   
federal standards  be the  same? He  pointed out that  Alaska                                                                   
has a  unique environment and  an economic requirement  since                                                                   
many of the state's industries demand clean water.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  June  discussed  the  issue  in  regards  to  commercial                                                                   
fisheries. He observed that he  recently attended a Southeast                                                                   
region wide  Native environmental  conference. Concerns  were                                                                   
mentioned regarding  cruise ship  discharges. Seaweed  in the                                                                   
Haines  area has been  affected. He  acknowledged that  there                                                                   
are other  contributing factors  and emphasized the  need for                                                                   
more information.  Lesions have  been found on  salmon during                                                                   
the last five years. Fishers are  attempting to market Alaska                                                                   
salmon as  organic. Stringent  water quality regulations  are                                                                   
needed to  assure the consumer  that these salmon  are clean.                                                                   
He  noted that  nets in  Lynn  Canal are  collecting a  brown                                                                   
residue, which  must be washed  after every set. There  are a                                                                   
number of swimming beaches that  should be tested for impacts                                                                   
on public health. The industry  had the Seward SeaLife Center                                                                   
do a review on data collected.  The study recommended a 1,000                                                                   
square area to dissipate the existing  discharges. This would                                                                   
be a 400 sq mile area per ship  per day. An area of 100 miles                                                                   
by 4 miles would  be needed for one ship discharging  per day                                                                   
or half of the Inside Passage.  There can be as many as 5 - 6                                                                   
ships discharging in this area at a time.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
JOE LEBEAU, MAT-SU testified via  teleconference. He observed                                                                   
that Alaskan waters  are special to Alaskans and  the rest of                                                                   
the world. He  referred to RCRA. He noted that  new chemicals                                                                   
are  developed  almost  every  day. Some  chemicals  used  in                                                                   
cleaning solutions  are not regulated  by RCRA but  are still                                                                   
toxic.  Some  chemicals  that  are  safe  by  themselves  are                                                                   
dangerous when mixed.  He maintained that it  is necessary to                                                                   
know what chemicals are in the  discharges in Alaskan waters.                                                                   
He  noted  that filter  feeders  such  as clams  and  mussels                                                                   
consume  and   concentrate  wastes  discharged   from  cruise                                                                   
vessels. He maintained that the  cruise ship industry's track                                                                   
history  in U.S.  waters prove  the need  for enforcement  of                                                                   
environmental laws. The cruise  ship-sampling program in 2000                                                                   
showed that graywater was more  dangerous than most municipal                                                                   
wastewater discharges.  Discharged black water  often did not                                                                   
meet standards. State oversight is needed of the industry.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
RION  SCHMIDT,   CORDOVA  testified  via   teleconference  in                                                                   
support of strong discharge controls.  He maintained that the                                                                   
state  should  have the  right  to  manage the  industry.  He                                                                   
observed that the industry could  dump waste in any manner in                                                                   
Prince Williams  Sound. He stressed  that toxins would  go to                                                                   
the bottom and remain there. He  emphasized the importance of                                                                   
clean  water. He  suggested that  Prince  Williams Sound  and                                                                   
Resurrection Bay be made into a no discharge zone.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
JOANNA  RIECHHOLD, CORDOVA  testified  via teleconference  in                                                                   
opposition  of  HB  260.  She urged  the  Committee  to  pass                                                                   
something  with teeth  and maintained  that HB  260 does  not                                                                   
have sufficient teeth.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SUE SCHRADER,  JUNEAU read the  testimony of DIANE,  MCBRIDE,                                                                   
HOMER. Ms. McBride has been a  coastal Alaskan resident since                                                                   
1967, working  as a fisherwoman, teacher, and  small business                                                                   
owner                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     HB  260 is shocking.  There  is simply  no time for  the                                                                   
     public process to occur before  the end of this session.                                                                   
     Alaskans  have had  less than  24 hours  to review  this                                                                   
     bill.  This  is  a closed-door  bill,  worked  with  the                                                                   
     cruise  ship industry, so  that they  can get  what they                                                                   
     want. This looks terrible  to Alaskans, and it is a poor                                                                   
     reflection on the legislative  body supporting this 11th                                                                   
     hour bill.  Many people, in good faith,  have worked for                                                                   
     two  years on  Representative  Kerttula's  bill and  the                                                                   
     Governor's  bill.   These  bills  allowed   full  public                                                                   
     process.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Why  would you  want to pre-empt  the  state? It is  the                                                                   
     state that should monitor,  test, and enforce. Voluntary                                                                   
     compliance  and  reporting by  this  huge industry  just                                                                   
     will not cut  the muster with Alaskans. HB 260  is not a                                                                   
     compromise bill at all.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     It  has no  provisions regarding  the  big pollutants  -                                                                   
     hazardous wastes,  air emissions, and solid  wastes. DEC                                                                   
     needs  to   be  the  regulating  body  -   so  sampling,                                                                   
     inspections,  and  reporting  can be  accomplished.  The                                                                   
     state  has the  right  to know,  and  Alaskans have  the                                                                   
     right to know  what the cruise industry  is putting into                                                                   
     our waters  and air. We want a comprehensive  picture of                                                                   
     what  they  are  leaving behind.  The  cruise  industry,                                                                   
     bringing  in almost one  million passengers,  into state                                                                   
     waters,  can be the  state's largest polluter.  Alaskans                                                                   
     don't want another big surprise like last summer.                                                                          
     We want clean  air and water. I conclude that  HB 260 is                                                                   
     getting special  treatment, and  this is wrong.  It must                                                                   
     go through  the proper public  process, and at  the very                                                                   
     least,   be  heard   in   transportation  and   resource                                                                   
     committee   hearings.  HB   260  is   bad  for   Alaska.                                                                   
     Hopefully,  HB   22  will  get  it's  hearing   in  this                                                                   
     committee  as quickly as  HB 260  did. Thank you.  Diane                                                                   
     McBride                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
TAPE HFC 01 - 102, Side A                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SUE SCHRADER,  ALASKA CONSERVATION  VOTERS testified  against                                                                   
the legislation. She did not feel  that the industry would be                                                                   
testifying  to   "glowing"  reports   of  air  emissions   if                                                                   
violations had not been found  and prosecuted. She noted that                                                                   
over  the past  several  years, many  of  their members  have                                                                   
actively  participated  in public  opportunities  to  discuss                                                                   
regulation of  cruise ship  discharges and volunteered  hours                                                                   
of time to  work constructively with industry  and government                                                                   
agencies  to   address  this  issue.  She  noted   that  they                                                                   
supported legislation  introduced last year and  earlier this                                                                   
year by Rep. Kerttula and Governor Knowles.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Schrader observed that they  have procedural concerns and                                                                   
substantive concerns  with HB 260. She maintained  that there                                                                   
had  been  disdain  for the  public  process.  She  expressed                                                                   
concern with the "bill's failure  to protect Alaskans and our                                                                   
resources  from a  wide  range of  pollutants  that the  bill                                                                   
conveniently  neglects to  address"  and added  that "if  the                                                                   
cruise  ship industry  is as  clean  as they  would like  the                                                                   
world to  believe, they should  have no hesitancy  submitting                                                                   
to monitoring  and reporting of  air emissions and  solid and                                                                   
hazardous waste discharges."                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
AMY  CROOK, CENTER  FOR  SCIENCE AND  PARTICIPATION,  JUNEAU,                                                                   
commented  that she had  worked as  a technical advisor  with                                                                   
the  Department  of Environmental  Conservation  Cruise  Ship                                                                   
Initiative Working Group on wastewater  concerns for the last                                                                   
year and a half. She expressed  concern with the process that                                                                   
brought the  bill before the  Committee. She maintained  that                                                                   
the legislation circumvents collaborative  efforts. She spoke                                                                   
to  technical   concerns.  She   referred  to  data   by  the                                                                   
Department of  Environmental Conservation and the  Seward Sea                                                                   
Life  Center. Last  year's study  found priority  pollutants,                                                                   
largely heavy  metals, in  high concentrations.  Copper, lead                                                                   
and zinc were found to be up to  a thousand times higher than                                                                   
current  state water  quality  standards  from several  ships                                                                   
from several  places. House  Bill 260  would not continue  to                                                                   
sample   for   these   contaminants.   These   heavy   metals                                                                   
concentrate in seafood. House  Bill 260 would not address the                                                                   
impacts of the heavy metals.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Crook stressed  that the  results of  the discharges  do                                                                   
have concentrations  of  contaminants that  will build  up in                                                                   
seafood and shellfish.  She added that the industry  has been                                                                   
requested  to do toxicity  testing. Every  other industry  in                                                                   
the  state  has  to  look at  the  toxicity  of  their  waste                                                                   
streams. As  the cruise  ship industry  grows, there  will be                                                                   
higher levels  of discharge into  smaller and  smaller areas,                                                                   
which concentrates  the rate. The industry has  not looked at                                                                   
areas that  have high  sensitivity where  the wastes  are not                                                                   
causing and in the future will  cause impacts to resources or                                                                   
residents that harvest and recreate in those areas.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Crook expressed concern with  toxicity, which could cause                                                                   
death or long-term  harm in the resources.  The concentration                                                                   
of contaminates into  smaller areas is of great  concern. She                                                                   
stressed the need for the cruise  industry to look at some of                                                                   
the  sensitive   areas  in  Southeast  where   the  ships  go                                                                   
everyday. She stressed  the need to assure that  discharge in                                                                   
areas of low  flushing are not occurring in  order to prevent                                                                   
the concentration of contaminates.   The bill would not allow                                                                   
that sampling to go forth.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Crook stated that the state  and local interests have the                                                                   
best understanding  of how to address the needs  of the state                                                                   
of Alaska. She argued that the  EPA does not understand local                                                                   
issues and  how to address  them. A regulatory  program would                                                                   
help the cruise industry to assure  that their discharges are                                                                   
clean,  which would  result in  good  PR (public  relations).                                                                   
They could  assure passengers that  they are not  harming the                                                                   
areas  that they  are visiting.  The legislation  circumvents                                                                   
the ability of the state to take the program forward.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Crook  referred  to hard rock  mining and  the affect  of                                                                   
that industry on shellfish and seafood.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Crook summarized  that the Seward Sea Life  Center agrees                                                                   
with the recommendations brought  forth for toxicity testing,                                                                   
bioaccumulation testing  and review of no discharge  areas in                                                                   
sensitive areas  and areas near  shore. She advised  that the                                                                   
recommendations come from the scientific community.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Hudson  asked  if  Ms. Crook  would  ban  all                                                                   
cruise ships from Alaskan waters  if she were a policy maker.                                                                   
Ms. Crook  explained that she  would not and stated  that she                                                                   
would ask the state to consider  the same issues, which every                                                                   
other industry  has been asked  to consider. She  stated that                                                                   
she would look at the information  being brought forth. Right                                                                   
now, she  counseled the Committee  to look at the  areas with                                                                   
the highest resource  value and the resources  that are being                                                                   
harmed  and  either  reduce  the   number  of  ships  or  not                                                                   
discharge  in those  areas. In  the long  term, the  industry                                                                   
should be brought into compliance with existing standards.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
In response  to a question  by Co-Chair Williams,  Ms. Crooks                                                                   
explained that  the Coast Guard, Department  of Environmental                                                                   
Conservation and a third party contractor provided data.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative  John Davies  asked what  were the sources  of                                                                   
heavy metal  pollutants and  questioned where testing  should                                                                   
occur.  Ms.  Crook stated  that  the  next  step would  be  a                                                                   
toxicity  identification  evaluation   and  then  a  toxicity                                                                   
reduction evaluation.  All other industry in  the state would                                                                   
have to  go through these  steps when they find  contaminates                                                                   
in  their wastewater.  A toxicity  identification  evaluation                                                                   
would look at all discharges and  identify where contaminates                                                                   
are coming  from. All waste  streams would be  reviewed. Then                                                                   
there would be  analysis of each of the  contaminate stations                                                                   
to determine why they were generated.  There are a tremendous                                                                   
number of fixes.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative  John  Davies  asked  if  waste  streams  were                                                                   
identified  from  those  uses.   Ms.  Crook  noted  that  the                                                                   
industry has  been requested  to look  at the waster  streams                                                                   
individually  to  allow  understanding   of  the  contaminant                                                                   
level.  Instead samples  were taken  as a  composite to  save                                                                   
money.  Ms. Crook  replied that  it is  a short-term  intense                                                                   
analysis. The same  level of investigation would  not have to                                                                   
be repeated once the evaluation were done.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
DANIELLE  BROWN,  JUNEAU,  testified  in  opposition  to  the                                                                   
legislation.  She  stressed  the importance  of  the  coastal                                                                   
waters of  Alaska and the  coastal marine resources.  She did                                                                   
not think  that the cruise ship  industry is under  siege and                                                                   
stated that  she would  rather have the  cruise ships  out of                                                                   
Alaska then have them pollute Alaskan waters.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Brown  noted that  she kayaked  4 1/2  months: over  1100                                                                   
miles  in   British  Columbia   and  Southeast  Alaska.   She                                                                   
primarily sustained  herself on  the marine resources:  crab,                                                                   
fish,  sea  cucumbers,  sea  urchins,   clams,  oysters,  and                                                                   
seaweeds. She emphasized that  the state needs to do testing,                                                                   
monitoring  and enforcement.  She maintained  that the  state                                                                   
cannot rely  on the cruise  ships "voluntary compliance"  and                                                                   
pointed  to  recent occurrences  of  discharge  into  Alaskan                                                                   
waters.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Brown asserted  that there  is  a public  right to  know                                                                   
issue  regarding  the safety  of  the marine  resources.  She                                                                   
pointed  out that  HB 260  does not  regulate air  emissions,                                                                   
waste discharge or hazardous waste.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Brown  noted that  the Governor  and Representative  Beth                                                                   
Kerttula  introduced other  bills  (HB 183  and  HB 22).  She                                                                   
maintained that  Representative Beth Kerttula's  bill, HB 22,                                                                   
is  more   comprehensive.  She  noted   that  HB  260   is  a                                                                   
transportation and  resource issue and questioned  the amount                                                                   
of public input.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
ROBERT REGES,  ATTORNEY, CRUISE  CONTROL INC., JUNEAU,  spoke                                                                   
to questions  raised in  the Committee  during the  course of                                                                   
the meeting.  He observed  that he  was in environmental  law                                                                   
for 16 years: four  of which were focused solely  on RCRA. He                                                                   
noted that this  is not the first legislation of  its kind. A                                                                   
bill similar to  HB 22, which addressed cruise  ship control,                                                                   
was adopted by the state of California.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Reges stressed  that the state should be  doing more than                                                                   
the  federal  government  or  the  state  of  California.  He                                                                   
pointed  out that  there are  no islands  in California.  The                                                                   
(cruise  ship)  operations  are  different  in  other  states                                                                   
because  of the  island situation.  He  noted that  15 to  20                                                                   
percent of the  gross revenues generated by  the cruise lines                                                                   
                                                            th                                                                  
is earned in Alaska.  Mr. Reges stated that Juneau  is the 5                                                                    
most visited destination in the  world. Alaska is getting the                                                                   
bulk of  the impacts. In  addition, Alaska has  other issues,                                                                   
such as  subsistence. He referred  to the Florida Keys  and a                                                                   
study of impacts.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Reges characterized HB 260  as a "ask me no questions and                                                                   
I  will tell  you no  lies" bill.  He  acknowledged that  not                                                                   
everything in HB 260 is bad. The  fee structure is admirable.                                                                   
He applauded the Coastal Protection  Fund and the recognition                                                                   
program. He added that HB 260  reaches the smaller vessels of                                                                   
50 instead of  500 and has a compliance schedule  for smaller                                                                   
operators   allowing  years   to   come  up   to  speed.   He                                                                   
acknowledged   that  some   provisions   (in   HB  260)   are                                                                   
exceptional and  should be added  to HB 22. He  stressed that                                                                   
HB 22 should  be used as the  vehicle because of what  is not                                                                   
in HB 260.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Reges spoke  to  hazardous  waste. Under  RCRA  it is  a                                                                   
violation to  dump raw hazardous  waste. He pointed  out that                                                                   
all  wastes that  go into  the graywater  waste streams  from                                                                   
rooms  are   household  hazardous   wastes,  which   are  not                                                                   
regulated  by RCRA. These  could be  regulated on the  cruise                                                                   
ships  and  are captured  under  HB  22. Dry  cleaners,  hair                                                                   
facilities   and   other   semi-commercial   facilities   are                                                                   
considered   as    conditionally   exempt    small   quantity                                                                   
generators. There  is no permitting or reporting  unless they                                                                   
are off-loaded. He acknowledged  that it would be a violation                                                                   
to dump  wastes overboard,  but emphasized  that it  would be                                                                   
hard  to detect.  Federal legislation  only  deals with  body                                                                   
waste.  The definition  of  "graywater"  in HB  260  excludes                                                                   
other waste streams.  The definition in HB 22  comes from the                                                                   
federal  Clean Water  Act and  does not  exclude other  waste                                                                   
streams. HB 22 had a provision  to require reporting of mixed                                                                   
substances.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Reges  discussed solid wastes.  He noted that HB  22 asks                                                                   
the industry  to tell  where off  loaded wastes  are put.  He                                                                   
pointed  out   that  the  information  serves   several  good                                                                   
purposes and was not previously  objected to by the industry.                                                                   
The use of shore based infrastructure  results in the need to                                                                   
anticipate  off loading.  In addition,  under HB  260 a  less                                                                   
than  honorable   operator  could  put  wastes   on  a  small                                                                   
noncommercial vessel and dump them without penalty.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Reges referred  to  air  pollution. He  emphasized  that                                                                   
Alaska has unique terrene. Vessels  have continuous emissions                                                                   
monitors, which  resulted from  a compromise in  a litigation                                                                   
settlement.  He   spoke  in  support  of  inclusion   of  air                                                                   
monitoring provisions  in the legislation. He  suggested that                                                                   
there could be immunity for self-enforcement.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Reges  noted that  HB  260  does  not pick  up  priority                                                                   
pollutants.   Operators,  under   HB  260,  could   discharge                                                                   
directly from waste  streams from on board beauty  salons and                                                                   
photo processing because it is  not graywater. House Bill 260                                                                   
also took out the sanctions provision  of HB 22. He noted the                                                                   
state could assess damages to  an egregious violator under HB
260,  but  HB 22  also  developed  penalties for  those  that                                                                   
failed to register.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
TAPE HFC 01 - 102, Side B                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Reges stated that HB 260 suffers  from an under inclusive                                                                   
regulatory enabling  provision. He  explained that  the power                                                                   
to gather more information is  not implicit in the Department                                                                   
of  Environmental Conservation's  obligation  to report.  The                                                                   
provision states that the department  must assess information                                                                   
submitted  by industry,  which is  limited. He  felt that  it                                                                   
would  be  difficult  for  the   department  to  use  implied                                                                   
authority  under   the  reporting  authority  to   bolster  a                                                                   
narrowly crafted enabling provision.  This provision is under                                                                   
inclusive  and  the  department  needs  enough  authority  to                                                                   
secure data.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Hudson  asked if  the department  would  have                                                                   
access  to the  Coast Guard's  inspections  and reports.  Mr.                                                                   
Reges responded that they could  ask, but noted that the data                                                                   
could  be  enforcement  sensitive  and  protected  under  the                                                                   
Freedom of  Information Act.  Federal agencies are  reluctant                                                                   
to share with  state agencies because the public  record laws                                                                   
of Alaska are much broader.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Reges submitted  a written comparison (copy  on file.) He                                                                   
concluded  that the substance  of HB  22 should be  included:                                                                   
off loading  provision, provision  for pollutants,  sanctions                                                                   
and administrative penalties.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Lancaster  asked  how  often a  ship  has  to                                                                   
discharge. Mr.  Reges observed  that vessels vary.  Some have                                                                   
longer periods, as  much as 6 days; others  must discharge in                                                                   
a matter of  hours. Representative Hudson observed  that many                                                                   
of the water  systems are salt water and on  shore facilities                                                                   
would corrode if they were used.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft referred  to the Resource  Conservation                                                                   
and  Recovery Act  of 1976.  He  questioned if  RCRA has  the                                                                   
vessel  underway at 6  knot, 1-mile  restrictions. Mr.  Reges                                                                   
observed that RCRA  has no provisions in regards  to vessels.                                                                   
He provided  a brief history of  RCRA. He explained  that the                                                                   
Act was  crafted in  1976 because the  Air Pollution  Act and                                                                   
the Clean  Water Act resulted  in a consolidation  of wastes.                                                                   
Vessels  are excluded  from  many of  the  provisions in  the                                                                   
regulatory scheme. Specific to  cruise ships, any wastes that                                                                   
are hazardous, that come out of  the passenger rooms, are not                                                                   
regulated in  any way by  RCRA. On shore,  a permit  would be                                                                   
required  under the  Clean Water  Act. That  which is  exempt                                                                   
from RCA is picked up under the  monitoring provisions of the                                                                   
permit under the Clean Water Act.  Vessels are not subject to                                                                   
this  permitting.  He  acknowledged  that EPA  may  have  the                                                                   
authority,  but  noted that  EPA  has never  regulated  these                                                                   
pollutants.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft questioned  if either  the Clean  Water                                                                   
Act or  RCRA have  provisions  similar to the  underway  at 6                                                                   
knots,  1 mile  idea. Mr.  Reges noted  that neither  contain                                                                   
these  requirements.   The  language  is  in   the  Murkowski                                                                   
legislation.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft   observed  that  Murkowski's   federal                                                                   
legislation,  HB 183  and HB 22  understand  that there  is a                                                                   
difference between  discharging at a stop near  the shore and                                                                   
discharging in motion. He concluded  that if the discharge of                                                                   
these  pollutants are  not  restricted than  discharge  could                                                                   
occur near shore.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Reges agreed  and explained that under HB  260 a distinct                                                                   
waste  stream from  a  photo processing  lab  that was  piped                                                                   
straight over the side would not  violate HB 260. It would be                                                                   
a violation  of RCRA, but  there would be  no way for  EPA to                                                                   
know.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Reges noted  that the Coast Guard found  the discharge of                                                                   
the Royal  Caribbean during  an inspection.  The Coast  Guard                                                                   
ascertained that  piping had been  changed. He  observed that                                                                   
under HB 22, the  industry would not have to  monitor for the                                                                   
waste streams in  the graywater if the movement  of the waste                                                                   
stream  was  reported  with  precision.  Reporting  of  waste                                                                   
streams would have to be reported.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
In response to a question by Representative  Croft, Mr. Reges                                                                   
explained that  there are two  categories of hazardous  waste                                                                   
under   RCRA.  One   is  the   concentration   base;  is   it                                                                   
concentrated  enough to  fail a  toxicity test.  There are  a                                                                   
list  of items  that  are hazardous,  such  as dry  cleaning,                                                                   
under any concentration. Commercial  operations on the vessel                                                                   
are generators of hazardous waste.  If there is a conditional                                                                   
exemption, wastes can be handled  at any approved solid waste                                                                   
facility.  Dumping over  the side  is not  an approved  solid                                                                   
waste facility and would be a  violation of RCRA. The problem                                                                   
with HB 260  is that there would  be no way for the  state to                                                                   
know and  very little way  for the Coast  Guard to  find out,                                                                   
except through  luck. HB  22 set  up a  regime to follow  the                                                                   
waste stream.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
RANDY RAY,  US CRUISE SHIP  ASSOCIATION testified  in support                                                                   
of the legislation.  He assured members that  the Association                                                                   
shares the  goal of  protecting Alaska.  He noted that  their                                                                   
ships carry  36 to 135 passengers,  with on member  presently                                                                   
building a  vessel for  249 passengers,  which would  be used                                                                   
for  the Alaska  trade. He  observed that  their vessels  are                                                                   
operationally  different from  the large  cruise vessels.  He                                                                   
emphasized that  combining small and larger vessels  into one                                                                   
law can lead  to problems. Their vessels  currently discharge                                                                   
4,000 gallons  of gray  and black water  a day. Large  cruise                                                                   
ships discharge  250,000 to 300,000 gallons.  They use marine                                                                   
sanitation devices,  certified by  the Coast Guard.  He noted                                                                   
that 200  fecal coliform  must be meet  in 38 of  40 samples.                                                                   
The two samples  that are thrown out can be  higher. The bill                                                                   
requires that  all samples meet  the standard every  time. If                                                                   
not,  severe   penalties  are  levied.  He  noted   that  new                                                                   
technology  would not  work on  smaller  cruise ships.  Their                                                                   
systems  use salt  water  and  would not  work  with the  new                                                                   
systems. The systems  also require large space  not available                                                                   
on  smaller ships.  Smaller vessels  must  rely on  standards                                                                   
with 10  - 20 year old technology.  He pointed out  that they                                                                   
were told that they did not need  to do monitoring. They self                                                                   
monitored  anyway  and  found  that  they  were  in  need  of                                                                   
improvement. One  of their vessels  passed both the  gray and                                                                   
black water tests. Other vessels  are communicating with this                                                                   
one to  assess what is working.  They have continued  to test                                                                   
even in foreign waters and there has been improvement.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Ray observed  that the legislation would  make allowances                                                                   
to exempt  small vessel operators  until the year  2006. This                                                                   
would allow  them a chance to  ferret out new  technology and                                                                   
have  it installed.  He  questioned  if the  exemption  would                                                                   
apply. Currently, the definition  is limited to vessels below                                                                   
200 passengers.  He reiterated that  one of their  members is                                                                   
building a  vessel for 249  passengers. He observed  that the                                                                   
only  technology  available  to  this  operator  is  what  is                                                                   
available  today.  The  size definition  would  penalize  the                                                                   
operator who is  trying to build a U.S. flag boat  to come to                                                                   
Alaska.  Senator Murkowski's  legislation  in recognition  of                                                                   
these   problems   set   the   limit   at   500   passengers.                                                                   
Representative Kerttula's legislation  also used a definition                                                                   
of 500 passengers.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Ray discussed  page  9,  exemption for  certain  smaller                                                                   
vessels.  He noted  that  the  department "might,"  grant  an                                                                   
exemption  for commercial  passenger vessels.  He asked  that                                                                   
"might"  be  changed  (to require  the  exemption).  He  also                                                                   
requested that 200 passengers  be changed to a higher number,                                                                   
perhaps the same as Senator Murkowski's (500).                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Mulder questioned  if most ships  are either  below                                                                   
250 or  significantly higher. Mr.  Ray noted that  that there                                                                   
are  some  ships on  the  Mississippi  River that  carry  498                                                                   
passengers.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Ray referred to subsection (2) and (3) on page 9:                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     (2) Owner  or operator  demonstrates that  environmental                                                                   
     protection   equivalent   to   that  afforded   by   the                                                                   
     prohibitions  in AS 46.03.463(a)  - (c) can  be attained                                                                   
     through  other   means  appropriate  for   the  specific                                                                   
     configuration or  operation of the vessel  and the owner                                                                   
     or operator agrees to use those other means;                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     3) Owner or operator submits  satisfactory evidence that                                                                   
     additional  time  is needed  to  make the  changes  that                                                                   
     would be necessary to eliminate  the discharges that are                                                                   
     prohibited under AS 46.03.463(a) - (c); and                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Ray suggested  that  the  use of  "and"  at  the end  of                                                                   
subsection (3)  would allow  the Department of  Environmental                                                                   
Conservation  to  require  a   more  stringent  standard.  He                                                                   
explained  that they are  concerned about  subsection  (c) on                                                                   
page 9:                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     (c) As a  condition of granting an exemption  under this                                                                   
     section,  the department  may impose  special terms  and                                                                   
     conditions    to   require   additional    environmental                                                                   
     protection  or  research  if necessary  to  prevent  the                                                                   
     vessel  owner or  operator  who has  an exemption  under                                                                   
     this  section  from  obtaining  a  significant  economic                                                                   
     advantage  over  its  competitors  as a  result  of  the                                                                   
     exemption.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
An employee  of the Department of Environmental  Conservation                                                                   
told  Mr.  Ray, that  if  one  operator spent  $100  thousand                                                                   
dollars  for  a  marine  sanitation  device  that  the  other                                                                   
operators  could  be  assessed   the  same  amount  on  their                                                                   
exemption permit for research costs.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative John Davies concluded  that the issue would be                                                                   
that  operators  with  an  exemption  would  have  an  unfair                                                                   
advantage. Mr. Ray disagreed with the provision.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Ray  discussed page 4, line  18. He explained  that their                                                                   
marine sanitation  devises work  best when they  are operated                                                                   
24 hours  a day. They are  more likely to meet  the standards                                                                   
if  they  continue  to  operate while  they  are  docked.  He                                                                   
maintained  that vessels  should be allowed  to discharge  if                                                                   
they  meet the  standard. Some  vessels do  not have  holding                                                                   
tanks  for graywater.  This provision  would  ban some  older                                                                   
vessels from operating in Alaska.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Ray  stressed that the problem  is to address  ships that                                                                   
operate   differently  under   one   piece  of   legislation.                                                                   
Representative  Davies  noted  that  subsection  (e)  exempts                                                                   
small vessels from (d).                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Croft pointed  out that  subsection (e)  is a                                                                   
higher standard.  Representative John Davies  summarized that                                                                   
the ships  would be exempt if  they meet all the  state water                                                                   
quality standards.  Mr. Ray observed that the  purpose is not                                                                   
to resolve  all the  issues today.  He emphasized that  there                                                                   
are more  steps in the  process and more  can be  solved once                                                                   
the technical amendments are addressed.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
RUSS HEATH, JUNEAU read testimony  on behalf of AURAH LANDAU,                                                                   
JUNEAU.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Conservative estimates  tell us that tourism  is growing                                                                   
     at 10%  per year, which  means that cruise  ship tourism                                                                   
     can  double in  just 7-10  years. At  EPA hearings  this                                                                   
     fall  to  discuss cruise  ship  hearings,  the room  was                                                                   
     packed, with standing room  only. Over 90% of the people                                                                   
     asked  for better  testing,  monitoring, and  compliance                                                                   
     enforcement,  and for the  right to  know what  is being                                                                   
     dumped into  our waters.  With so much public  interest,                                                                   
     and the cruise industry a  growing force in Alaska, it's                                                                   
     certainly appropriate  for a cruise ship bill  to have a                                                                   
     full round  of hearings. I'm  dismayed, that HB  260 was                                                                   
     introduced  yesterday  on the  House  floor,  and had  a                                                                   
     hearing  scheduled  within  hours. The  consequence  has                                                                   
     been  that this  bill has  been put  together with  very                                                                   
     little public  comment and  should not be  raced through                                                                   
     the  legislative process.  Both HB  22 and  HB 183  have                                                                   
     been developed  in response  to extensive public  review                                                                   
     and  agreements  reached   among  state  agencies,  bill                                                                   
     sponsors,  and  cruise  industry   and  cruise  industry                                                                   
     representatives. Rushing  HB 260 to hearing, and denying                                                                   
     hearings for  HB 22 and HB  183, is an  unacceptable end                                                                   
     run around the public process  and the people of Alaska.                                                                   
     Because   of  the   shortened   review  process,   local                                                                   
     governments,  fishing groups,  local tourism  operators,                                                                   
     and other  groups of people who's lives  and livelihoods                                                                   
     will be affected by this  bill will not have a chance to                                                                   
     adequately review and testify about HB 260.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     I have  tow general concerns  and several  specific ones                                                                   
     that I  would like to  talk about. While  the Governor's                                                                   
     bill  and HB 22  both address  air and water  emissions,                                                                   
     and solid  waste, HB 260  is only concerned  with water.                                                                   
     HB 260 is  not an adequate substitute for  either HB 183                                                                   
     or  HB 22.  Two,  HB 260  hands the  Federal  government                                                                   
     authority  to  set  discharge levels,  without  some  or                                                                   
     these levels  even existing,  yet in law.  Regardless of                                                                   
     whether or not  standards exist, I do not  want folks in                                                                   
     DC  or  Seattle,  who may  know  nothing  about  Alaska,                                                                   
     telling  us what  levels  of emissions  are  ok for  our                                                                   
     beaches,  fishing  grounds,   herring  spawning  waters,                                                                   
     sport fish  areas, and  subsistence tidelands  and other                                                                   
     waters.  The   State  should  not  cede   authority,  in                                                                   
     exchange  for voluntary  testing  and  reporting by  the                                                                   
     cruise lines.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Other specific points are:                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
   • One, HB 183 contains a provision that if ships are out                                                                     
      of compliance  with their permits, they  aren't invited                                                                   
      back  into  our  waters.  According  to  HB  260,  this                                                                   
      enforcement  measure is substituted  with voyage  fees.                                                                   
      At first glance this sounds  reasonable, but these fees                                                                   
      are very low, and are set  to end in January 2004. This                                                                   
      is  no incentive  for  cruise  lines to  upgrade  their                                                                   
      systems to protect our waters.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
   • Secondly, HB 260 requires the cruise line to sample                                                                        
      treated  sewage  and  graywater   sampling  only  twice                                                                   
      during the  season, once at  the beginning and  once at                                                                   
      the  end.  Twice  is  not  enough!  Without  mid-season                                                                   
      sampling, there is not enough  information available to                                                                   
      he able to identify and correct  problems as they occur                                                                   
      during the months that the  ships are afloat on Alaskan                                                                   
      waters.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
   • Three, records are only to be kept for three years.                                                                        
      Under federal reporting requirements  for water and air                                                                   
      emissions, companies  are required to keep  records for                                                                   
      a minimum  of five  years. In  some cases, the  records                                                                   
      are  to be  kept  and available  for  the  life of  the                                                                   
      facility. State laws should  be consistent with federal                                                                   
      reporting  requirements.  With  DEC having  to  request                                                                   
      records instead  of regularly  receiving them,  it will                                                                   
      far more  difficult for members  of the  general public                                                                   
      to know what's being put into our waters.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
   • The last point, it has been suggested that HB 260 goes                                                                     
      beyond any  other state's laws.  With no state  laws on                                                                   
      the books,  HB 260 goes  beyond nothing. It  only steps                                                                   
      back from  the protective  measures  outlined by  HB 22                                                                   
      and HB 183.  With commercial fishing  being Southeast's                                                                   
      largest  private employer  relying  so  heavily on  our                                                                   
      rich marine waters, Alaska has  much more to loose than                                                                   
      other states,  and should rightly  be on  the forefront                                                                   
      of any efforts to adequately protect our resources.                                                                       
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
The meeting was adjourned at 5:00 p.m.                                                                                          

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