Legislature(1999 - 2000)
03/16/1999 08:05 AM House CRA
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS
STANDING COMMITTEE
March 16, 1999
8:05 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Andrew Halcro, Co-Chairman
Representative John Harris, Co-Chairman
Representative Carl Morgan
Representative Lisa Murkowski
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative Reggie Joule
Representative Albert Kookesh
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
*HOUSE BILL NO. 103
"An Act relating to civil actions by municipalities and certain
public corporations and prohibiting certain civil actions by them
against firearms or ammunition manufacturers and dealers."
- MOVED CSHB 103(CRA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
*HOUSE BILL NO. 98
"An Act relating to contracts for the provision of state public
assistance to certain recipients in the state; providing for
regional public assistance plans and programs in the state;
relating to grants for Alaska tribal family assistance programs;
and providing for an effective date."
- MOVED CSHB 98(CRA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 103
SHORT TITLE: LIABILITY RELATING TO FIREARMS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) DYSON, Austerman
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
2/19/99 260 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
2/19/99 260 (H) CRA, JUDICIARY
2/24/99 308 (H) COSPONSOR(S): AUSTERMAN
3/09/99 (H) CRA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124
3/16/99 (H) CRA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124
BILL: HB 98
SHORT TITLE: PUB.ASSISTANCE:PROGRAMS/GRANTS/CONTRACTS
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
2/19/99 253 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
2/19/99 253 (H) CRA, HES, FIN
2/19/99 254 (H) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DHSS)
2/19/99 254 (H) GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER
3/09/99 (H) CRA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124
3/16/99 (H) CRA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
VICTOR GUNN, Legislative Administrative Assistant
for Senator Pete Kelly
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 510
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2327
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 103.
DAVID KELLEYHOUSE
Alaska Outdoor Council
PO Box 81452
Fairbanks, Alaska
Telephone: (907) 455-7882
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 103.
MIKE COONS, Paramedice
Member, National Rifle Association
PO Box 4225
Palmer, Alaska 99645
Telephone: (907) 745-6779
POSITION STATEMENT: Encouraged passage of HB 103 and SB 77.
JIM NORDLUND, Director
Division of Public Assistance
Department of Health & Social Services
PO Box 110640
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0640
Telephone: (907) 465-5154
POSITION STATEMENT: Discussed HB 98.
TERRY HOEFFERLE, Chief of Operations
Bristol Bay Native Association
PO Box 310
Dillingham, Alaska 99576
Telephone: (907) 842-5257
POSITION STATEMENT: Discussed Bristol Bay Native Association and
Native nonprofits in general.
DON SHIRCEL, Director
Family Services
Tanana Chiefs Council
122 First Avenue
Fairbanks, Alaska 99701
Telephone: (907) 452-8251
POSITION STATEMENT: Discussed the Tanana Chiefs Council program.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 99-15, SIDE A
Number 0001
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS called the House Community and Regional Affairs
Standing Committee meeting to order at 8:05 a.m. Members present
at the call to order were Representatives Halcro, Harris, Morgan,
Murkowski, Dyson and Kookesh. Representative Joule arrived at 8:07
a.m.
HB 103-LIABILITY RELATING TO FIREARMS
Number 0047
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS announced the first order of business before the
committee would be HOUSE BILL NO. 103, "An Act relating to civil
actions by municipalities and certain public corporations and
prohibiting certain civil actions by them against firearms or
ammunition manufacturers and dealers."
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON, Sponsor of HB 103, informed the committee
that HB 103 is a companion to SB 77, sponsored by Senator Pete
Kelly. Representative Dyson pointed out that Victor Gunn, staff to
Senator Pete Kelly, was present.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON believed there to be two issues at hand.
There appears to be a concerted effort from those who have an
inherent distaste for firearms to punish the industry, thereby
limiting the accessibility of firearms through liability suits.
Such liability suits attempt to financially punish the
manufacturers and distributors of firearms for the misuse of
firearms. This bill, HB 103, would prohibit Alaskan political
subdivisions from prosecuting suits for the misuse of legally
manufactured and distributed firearms. The bill does not prohibit
manufacturers from being sued for manufacturing defects and such of
the weapons themselves.
Number 0272
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON identified the other issue at hand as
liability itself. The misuse of any manufactured implement is the
responsibility of the person misusing the implement not the
manufacturer. He discussed the time his wife was on a jury in
which the manufacturer/distributor of a snow machine was being sued
by an individual hurt when a belt broke. The snow machine owner
testified in court that he had not maintained the snow machine for
four years, had taken the belt guard and cowling off, and was
racing the snow machine. Initially, Representative Dyson's wife
was the only juror who did not want to rule in favor of the injured
individual. Three or so days later, the jury did not award the
injured individual anything because this was not the manufacturer's
fault but rather the individual's misuse of the product.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON believed that everyone should be held
accountable for their actions. Manufacturers should be held
accountable for the production of inferior or unsafe items, but
should not be held accountable for the misuse of items.
Representative Dyson noted that firearms, as far as he knew, were
the only manufactured item that enjoys some constitutional
protection. Therefore, more care should be taken in the treatment
of firearms. He informed the committee that SB 77 had been amended
and those amendments should be before the committee. The Senate
amendments expand the bill to include the State of Alaska as a
party that could not bring forth such suits.
Number 0542
VICTOR GUNN, Legislative Administrative Assistant for Senator Pete
Kelly, Alaska State Legislature, supported HB 103. As
Representative Dyson said, cities are taking firearm manufacturers
to court to hold them responsible for the violence in the city.
Mr. Gunn stated that cities claim that firearm manufacturers have
conspired to flood the market knowing the guns will reach those
cities with strict gun laws via the black market. Furthermore, the
manufacturers are allegedly manufacturing more powerful firearms in
order to increase sales. Both HB 103 and
SB 77 are in response to lawsuits brought forth by municipalities
against gun manufacturers in order that the municipality can recoup
its damages from the illegal use of products. Mr. Gunn said, "They
were emboldened by recent tobacco settlements where municipalities
are now thinking they can attempt to supplement their general funds
by lawsuits directed at the deep pocket of gun manufacturers. A
product that they consider politically uncorrect." Unlike tobacco
companies, firearm manufacturers do not deny that they manufacture
a deadly product. Mr. Gunn indicated that people illegally using
firearms are not being held responsible.
MR. GUNN said that a group of lawyers, successful in the tobacco
suits, have persuaded the mayors of several large cities to go
after the firearm industry. The aim is to bankrupt the firearm
companies by suing for medical costs and monetary damages of
gun-related crime. Such lawsuits circumvent the constitutional
limits as well as democratic debate. Mr. Gunn stated, "The gun
control movement thinks it can win without passing laws or winning
elections. By using litigation to raise prices and drive
manufacturers out of business, the gun controllers can reduce the
access to firearms without confronting the Second Amendment." He
indicated the clear intent is to utilize the courts to accomplish
what the anti-gun lobbyists have not been able to accomplish in the
federal and state legislatures. "This clear abuse of tort
liability system seeks to use potentially bankrupting lawsuits to
force makers of a legal, but politically incorrect product, to quit
manufacturing."
Number 0812
MR. GUNN clarified that the intent of the legislation is not to
prevent bringing an action for product liability for a defective
product. Firearm manufacturing is a legal enterprise that produces
quality products that are lawfully and safely used by thousands of
Alaskans for various activities. Mr. Gunn said that Bill Reuger,
Jr. had commented that it is easier to blame the firearm
manufacturer than have people take responsibility for their
actions. The Reuger company motto has been, "Arms maker for
responsible citizens." Mr. Gunn informed the committee that the
American Firearms Council conducted a nationwide survey of
registered voters which found that 92 percent of registered voters
polled did not believe cities or states should sue firearm
manufacturers as a means to stop violence. The survey also found
that 67 percent of the voters polled believe that enforcing current
laws against the use of a firearm is more effective in addressing
criminal violence than limiting the number of firearms an
individual can purchase. He noted that the Public Opinion Strategy
of Alexandria, Virginia conducted the survey in October 1998 which
polled 800 registered voters nationwide with a margin of error of
plus or minus three percent.
MR. GUNN mentioned that blaming gun manufacturers for
firearm-related crime is somewhat of a novel theory. This would be
similar to attaching blame to an automobile manufacturer when an
individual drives an automobile while intoxicated and kills
someone. He asked, "What's next?" One professor's report
documented that firearms were used safely over 2 million times to
defend lives nationwide. Further, one-tenth of one percent of
firearms are used in any given year to commit armed crime. The
criminal use of firearms should be addressed by state and federal
legislatures, not the manufacturers of a legal product.
Number 1059
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI referred to the CSSB 77(JUD) when she
inquired as to, "...why they have removed it from the section
relating to municipalities, public corporations to its own
subsection."
MR. GUNN explained that the Senate committee felt it important to
include individuals and the state in SB 77, which the CS
accomplishes.
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI agreed with Mr. Gunn's earlier statements.
She commented that with regard to Mr. Gunn's question about what
would be next, Representative Murkowski hoped that the legislature
will not have to address this by statute; hopefully this will not
be the first of many statutes in an effort to end what some feel
are frivolous lawsuits.
MR. GUNN commented that from the information he has garnered there
is no "smoking gun" in this legislation. Unlike the tobacco
industry, which was viewed as deceiving the public there was a
"smoking gun." No one has proven that the firearm industry has
flooded the market with firearms knowing the firearms will move
into cities with stricter firearm control laws. Mr. Gunn explained
that the firearm industry sells firearms to legal dealers who in
turn sell firearms to individuals. What an individual does with
the firearm after purchasing it is unknown. He reiterated his
statements regarding the claims cities have made against the
firearm industry. Any firearm is a potentially fatal item in the
hands of an irresponsible individual. Mr. Gunn emphasized that
everyone should remember that millions of individuals have survived
and prevented attacks and assaults on their person due to the
presence of a firearm. The firearm industry should be protected.
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS referred to Section 2(b) which would cover
liability issues regarding the manufacture of unsafe or damaged
firearms.
MR. GUNN informed the committee of his law enforcement background.
He reiterated that the legislation does not intend to prevent
damages being sought for the manufacture of products not up to par.
Number 1422
DAVID KELLEYHOUSE, Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC), informed the
committee that AOC is the state affiliate of the National Rifle
Association (NRA). Mr. Kelleyhouse supported HB 103. He
reiterated Mr. Gunn's comments regarding the correlation between
the tobacco industry lawsuits and the flurry of lawsuits brought
against the firearms industry. He indicated that any industry with
deep pockets that is considered "politically incorrect" at the
moment would be in jeopardy.
MR. KELLEYHOUSE said that AOC feels the current litigation to be a
direct threat to Second Amendment rights. If substantial
judgements are levied against firearm manufacturers, the
manufacturer will become bankrupt or the price of weapons will
increase by a considerable amount, placing weapons out of reach to
the average American citizen.
MR. KELLEYHOUSE informed the committee that he served as the
Director of the Division of Wildlife Conservation under the
previous administration. He noted that Alaska receives $7 to $10
million a year in federal matching funds for wildlife conservation
as a result of the Federal Aid and Wildlife Restoration Act of
1937, the Pitman-Robertson Funds. Those funds come from the 11
percent excise tax on firearm manufacturers which is distributed to
all state wildlife agencies. This funding has been the backbone of
conservation funding throughout the U.S. since 1937. Mr.
Kelleyhouse pointed out that if firearm manufacturers go bankrupt
or if there is an extreme increase in the price of firearms, the
funding for state conservation and wildlife programs would be
strangled. Mr. Kelleyhouse stated, "No manufacturer should be held
responsible for the irresponsible or illegal use of its products.
There's scarcely a product in society today that could not be
injurious if misused, it's a matter of taking personal
responsibility for one's own actions. So, litigation against the
manufacturers of goods should not be viewed as a shortcut for local
governments to swell their coffers and shift blame for social
problems. Used legally, in the shooting sports, firearms are among
the safest of all products. Consider that statistically, hunting
and target shooting are more safe than football, bowling, or even
badminton. It's seven injuries per 100,000 participants."
MR. KELLEYHOUSE noted that he was involved in law enforcement for
20 years and a game biologist. He informed the committee that one
of the demands he has heard is for the firearm industry to make a
firearm specific to one individual owner. Mr. Kelleyhouse pointed
out that in two instances that he had to use a firearm to save the
life of another, he had to use another person's firearm.
Therefore, to make firearms useful to only one individual does not
make sense. Mr. Kelleyhouse said that the AOC and the NRA urge the
committee to adopt HB 103.
Number 1738
MIKE COONS, Paramedic, NRA member, testified via teleconference
from Palmer. He asked if the SB 77 amendment, prohibiting the
state or state agents to bring such a suit, will be included in
HB 103.
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS said not at this time.
MR. COONS noted that he had sent Co-Chairman Halcro and Harris
e-mails regarding this issue. Mr. Coons stated that HB 103 seems
to only address cities and boroughs. The language does not
prohibit states or agents of the state from filing frivolous
lawsuits against firearm manufacturers. He did not have a problem
with true product liability suits or breech of contract. Mr. Coons
felt that using only the Georgia law as a blueprint would be
ignoring the corrections other states have made in similar
legislation. Texas and Florida are stopping such suits from the
Governor's mansion on down. As long as it is possible to have an
anti-gun governor and an appointed state attorney general, the
prohibitive language for states and state agents must be included.
Mr. Coons cited fairness as another issue. He said, "The political
subdivisions have every right to yell 'foul' that...they are being
told what not to do, but the state isn't willing to put the same
restrictions on itself." Mr. Coons urged the committee to amend HB
103 to include language pertaining to the state as well as agents
of the state.
Number 1901
MR. COONS said that in an e-mail to the committee and
Representative Dyson, Mr. Coons encouraged an amendment fashioned
after language in Florida's legislation. Mr. Coons informed the
committee that Representative Dyson had expressed concern that the
amendment could prohibit HB 103 from passing out of the House of
Representatives. Mr. Coons noted that Senator Pete Kelly indicated
that he was considering an amendment which would make violations of
this law a civil action against the violator. Mr. Coons reiterated
his preference for language similar to that in Florida's law in
order to make any state agent have second thoughts about
challenging this law. Mr. Coons said that he would agree to a
compromise with the civil action, if the consequences for violation
of this law were punitive enough to strongly discourage such
action. He informed the committee that the Mayor of Atlanta,
Georgia was going forward with a suit against a firearm
manufacturer. Although Georgia has a law prohibiting such, there
are no meaningful ramifications.
MR. COONS stated that Internet polls by CNN and ABC respectively
report that respondents against such suits range between 75 to 90
percent. He noted that the last time he checked, the CNN poll had
received almost 100,000 respondents and the ABC poll had received
about 50,000 respondents. Mr. Coons emphasized that all industries
are open to such suits. He informed the committee of a report
aired on the Rush Limbaugh show about a report which concluded
smoking during pregnancy results in the baby becoming a criminal
which he felt illustrated the craziness of such litigation. In
closing, Mr. Coons encouraged the passage of HB 103 and SB 77.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON thanked Mr. Coons for his interest as well as
the information he has supplied on this issue. Representative
Dyson announced his intention to continue to work with Senator Pete
Kelly and have these two bills become similar, if not exactly the
same. Representative Dyson indicated that amendments will be made
in both bodies as the bills move through the committee process.
MR. COONS appreciated all the work on this issue. He mentioned
that Senator Pete Kelly was on NRA Live last week.
Number 2085
CO-CHAIRMAN HALCRO asked if Representative Dyson would approve of
adopting CSSB 77(JUD), Version LS0463\I, Ford, 3/15/99, and
reporting that out of committee as the CS from the House Community
& Regional Affairs committee. Co-Chairman Halcro believed that the
Senate Judiciary CS does a better job of covering everyone,
including state agencies and municipalities. Co-Chairman Halcro
pointed out that the CSSB 77(JUD) includes everything in HB 103,
but the language is a bit broader.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he would be pleased with the
substitution.
The committee took an at-ease from 8:36 a.m. to 8:37 a.m.
Number 2212
CO-CHAIRMAN HALCRO moved that the wording from the CSSB 77(JUD) be
considered as the content of the amended HB 103. There being no
objection, it was so ordered.
CO-CHAIRMAN HALCRO moved to report CSHB 103, Version LS0463\I,
Ford, 3/15/99, out of committee with individual recommendations and
the accompanying zero fiscal note. There being no objection, it
was so ordered.
The committee took an at-ease from 8:40 a.m. to 8:42 a.m.
HB 98-PUB.ASSISTANCE:PROGRAMS/GRANTS/CONTRACTS
Number 2278
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS announced the next order of business before the
committee as HOUSE BILL NO. 98, "An Act relating to contracts for
the provision of state public assistance to certain recipients in
the state; providing for regional public assistance plans and
programs in the state; relating to grants for Alaska tribal family
assistance programs; and providing for an effective date."
JIM NORDLUND, Director, Division of Public Assistance, Department
of Health & Social Services, said that he was present to testify on
behalf of the governor's bill, HB 98. This bill would allow Alaska
Native organizations to run their own welfare programs in their own
areas as well as providing an additional measure of local control
over welfare programs. Mr. Nordlund explained that HB 98 developed
from the Federal Welfare Reform Law signed by President Clinton in
August of 1996. The federal law allows tribal and Native
organizations in Alaska the ability to run their own Temporary
Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) program. The TANF federal
block grant runs the Alaska Temporary Assistance Program (ATAP)
which is the replacement for the Aid to Families with Dependent
Children (AFDC). Currently, Alaska receives about $65 million for
the TANF block grant. The federal law specifies that block grant
must be matched by, "the maintenance of effort", by 80 percent of
the funding the state spent on the AFDC program in 1994.
MR. NORDLUND explained that HB 98 would allow state funding to be
utilized by a Native-run program in Alaska. The federal law says
that the 12 regional nonprofits organizations in Alaska and the
Metlakatla Indian Community are eligible to receive part of
Alaska's block grant directly from the federal government to run
their own programs. The amount of money would be determined by the
department and would be based on the number of recipients that
state money used to serve those clients in the fiscal year (FY)
1994. Mr. Nordlund stated that the reason for HB 98 is to allow a
state match to the federal block grant. The AFDC program, the
primary cash assistance program for poor families in Alaska, has
traditionally been a 50-50 match program. The passage of the new
federal law created the TANF block grant which required states to
provide a match, but the match was not required for Native-run
programs. Therefore, HB 98 would allow state funding to follow the
federal money for a Native-run program. Native-run organizations
would become eligible for this funding in much the same way as the
state is eligible for the federal money. He explained that a plan
must be provided to the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human
Services; with the approval of that plan the Native-run
organization would receive its federal share. Mr. Nordlund pointed
out that the federal law includes a provision which states that a
Native-run program in Alaska needs to be comparable to the state's
program.
Number 2508
MR. NORDLUND informed the committee that currently, Alaska has a
grant that goes to the Tanana Chief's Conference (TCC). The grant
received by the TCC is similar to HB 98 in that it provides state
funding for cash assistance programs. In order to receive that
state funding, the TCC had to amend its original program to become
essentially identical to the state program. If HB 98 passed, the
TCC would be able to amend its plan to a program that TCC would
feel is a better welfare program for their area. For example, TCC
wanted to implement a 5 percent benefit reduction and use those
proceeds to fund enhanced alcohol and drug treatment programs for
those screened to have such problems. Mr. Nordlund felt that HB 98
does provide an additional measure for local control, allow
programs to be more culturally attune and better meet the needs of
persons in the specific locals.
MR. NORDLUND said that HB 98 would allow a Native-run program to
serve a non-Native in that area with departmental approval. For
example, in a small village populated with 20 Native families and
one non-Native family it makes more sense for the Native-run
program to serve the one non-Native family as opposed to the state
serving that family. With regard to whether HB 98 will cost any
money, Mr. Nordlund said no. Currently, the state serves Native
families in these areas. This bill would allow the diversion of
state funds to the Native organization in order to serve those same
families. Therefore, there is not a fiscal note for HB 98. He
noted that HB 98 has the possibility, although probably not in the
short-term, to save the state money. Mr. Nordlund believed that a
locally-run welfare program is probably a better welfare program
and has a better possibility of helping reduce welfare case loads,
thereby saving money.
Number 2667
CO-CHAIRMAN HALCRO asked if the intent of HB 98 is to provide more
flexibility.
MR. NORDLUND replied yes.
CO-CHAIRMAN HALCRO noted that Mr. Nordlund had provided a list of
14 organizations. He asked if those organizations have already
been approved to participate in this program or have those
organizations merely expressed a desire to participate.
MR. NORDLUND clarified that there are 12 regional nonprofits and
the Metlakatla Indian Community. No organization has been approved
yet. He reiterated that approval is incumbent upon a plan that the
organization submits to the federal government. The TCC plan has
been approved but had to be amended to become ATAP compatible in
order to receive state funding. In further response to Co-Chairman
Halcro, Mr. Nordlund agreed that in those areas without an
organization expressing interest in administering a welfare
program, the state would serve that population. Mr. Nordlund noted
that not all of the authorized organizations will pursue this.
Number 2753
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted that Mr. Nordlund used permissive
language when saying that a non-Native "may" participate in one of
these programs. Representative Murkowski referred to Mr.
Nordlund's example regarding a Native community with one non-Native
family. She asked if it would be an option to exclude the
non-Native family or would a Native nonprofit program have to
include anyone eligible in that village regardless.
MR. NORDLUND explained that if the Native organization and the
state agreed that the non-Native family would be served in that
village by the Native organization, that would be the case. The
recipient would not have the option to decide between service from
the state or the Native organization.
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI asked if for example, the Kodiak Native
Association could operate its program at the same time the state
operates its program.
MR. NORDLUND agreed that would be possible. He would encourage a
plan under which the state would serve non-Natives in Kodiak, while
the rural villages on Kodiak Island would be served by the
Native-run program. This would all be dependent upon the service
delivery structure that would be created in association with the
Native organization. However, Mr. Nordlund pointed out that it
would also be possible that the determination would be that the
Native organization would serve the non-Natives in that area. Mr.
Nordlund stated it is too soon to make such projections.
Number 2875
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI expressed concern that if two different
entities operate similar programs, there would be some
administrative overlap. Is there a way to eliminate such overlap?
MR. NORDLUND clarified that to eliminate the administrative overlap
and make use of the administration better is the intent of HB 98.
In larger communities such as Fairbanks, large administrative
structures exist. In smaller communities, having an additional
administrative body tends to be less efficient.
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH commented that these Native organizations to
which Mr. Nordlund is speaking have been alive for many years and
have strong administrative staff and presence in their regions.
These Native organizations would survive even without this
legislation, but HB 98 could make life in Rural Alaska easier.
This legislation makes sense for these regions as well as for the
state as a whole. Representative Kookesh said if the Native
organization does not do this work, the state will need a larger
presence in these areas.
TAPE 99-15, SIDE B
Number 2991
MR. NORDLUND pointed out that there is a limit to the state's
presence, especially in the smaller areas of Alaska. Native
organizations have already established a presence in villages.
Furthermore, Native organizations have a better ability than the
state to work with rural clients to do a better job helping those
clients move away from public assistance. In response to
Representative Murkowski, Mr. Nordlund stated that the TCC program
is very young. The TCC officially took over the program in
October. After a three month transition period, the TCC began
paying benefits. Mr. Nordlund believed it is still very early to
comment on the success of the program. Many hurtles remain to be
overcome. Mr. Nordlund believed that in the long run the TCC
program will be more successful than the state's program in that
area.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON noted that he was most familiar with Bristol
Bay Native Cooperation and the Cook Inlet Tribal Council. Those
organizations have done excellent work and are an immense asset.
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN asked if the TCC program has made judgement
calls based on the color of someone's skin in order to determine
for which program that individual would be eligible.
MR. NORDLUND informed the committee that protocols are being
established to determine such referrals. Mr. Nordlund pointed out
that the Division of Public Assistance will continue to issue
benefits and make eligibility determinations for the Medicaid
program and food stamps for Adult Public Assistance for Natives and
non-Natives. Only for ATAP would Native clients be referred to
TCC.
Number 2800
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN asked if the state would respect TCC's
application or would a client have to go through the entire process
again for the state. He indicated the possibility of duplication
and inconvenience for the client.
MR. NORDLUND said that there may be some inconvenience for the
client. He expressed the importance of establishing a relationship
between the client and TCC employee who will work with that client
in the future. Mr. Nordlund acknowledged that in some cases the
client would have to go across town to receive a service.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE noted that there is access to the Alaska
Career Information System (ACIS) during the transition from welfare
to work. Would that technology be available to the Native
organizations? Representative Joule emphasized that ACIS is an
excellent resource.
MR. NORDLUND said that clients are entitled to those services at
the usual locations (one-stops, the job service). Ideally, Native
organizations running these programs would offer such in house
through a computerized connection. However if the Native
organization has not reached that development stage, a client could
receive that information from an access point.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked if a Native organization were on-line
would ACIS follow.
MR. NORDLUND clarified that would be dependent upon the
capabilities of the Native organization. However if the service is
not available through the Native organization, the service would be
available through the other state offices.
Number 2609
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON encouraged, as Representative Morgan spoke to
earlier, co-locating these services and having one intake form.
Representative Dyson indicated he would ultimately desire every
family or person have one person/counselor/case manager who would
access all available services whether federal, state, local or
tribal. Representative Dyson understood from prior comments that
this legislation would somewhat separate services, but the benefits
would outweigh that concern.
MR. NORDLUND pointed out that the department is endeavoring to
establish a case management system. He mentioned the opening of
the one-stop center in Muldoon. Mr. Nordlund encouraged Native
organizations to try to locate in existing one-stops which would
not only save time for the client, but also achieve efficiencies in
other functions. Mr. Nordlund said that the department is trying
to move in that direction, but it is fairly complicated.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON mentioned that he had watched the Department
of Community & Regional Affairs do creative things in order to find
local organizations through which to work. Could the statute be
changed to make this easier? Representative Dyson longed for the
day in which a single individual can act on behalf of the local,
state and federal governments, et cetera. Therefore, co-locating
and separate administrative requirements would not be necessary.
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN commented that HB 98 sounds like the
beginnings of the privatization of state services which he
indicated perhaps, he would like.
MR. NORDLUND agreed this could be viewed as privatization. Mr.
Nordlund stated, "There is a bit of concern here in that regard, in
that--there is a provision in our state contract with the Public
Employee Unions that any time we look to privatize unless we can
show that its saving money, that a feasibility study needs to be
done in order to show that money actually can be saved to this
effort." Mr. Nordlund believed that would have to be done before
this legislation could be fully utilized.
Number 2273
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI returned to the Kodiak scenario. She
noted the understanding that a Native nonprofit organization has
the latitude to modify the program to accommodate local needs.
Suppose there is a Native organization running the program and the
state is running assistance for those located in Kodiak. "Is it
possible that one program is going to be perceived as more
favorable than the other and the only basis for the distinction is
the fact that one family is Native and one family is non-Native?
And what kind of problems does that create?"
MR. NORDLUND acknowledged Representative Murkowski's comments as
one of the concerns with HB 98. He pointed out that Senator
Murkowski had encouraged comparability language in federal law that
is included in the law as well as standards for comparability. The
programs must be comparable enough that the recipient of either
program is not discriminated against. For example, if HB 98 passes
and TCC does the five percent benefit cut in order to provide other
services, Mr. Nordlund recognized the possibility of a challenge
from a TCC recipient claiming they were treated unfairly which
could lead to litigation. Mr. Nordlund hoped the comparability
criteria would be adequate to sustain such a challenge.
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS inquired as to the way the money changed hands.
MR. NORDLUND explained that currently, the state pays cash to ATAP
through a debit card. He did not believe most Native organizations
would have that capability. Mr. Nordlund believed that TCC paid
its clients through their general account. He suggested there
might be folks from TCC on-line who could better speak to this. In
further response to Co-Chairman Harris' question about a tracking
mechanism, Mr. Nordlund said that there is some reporting about
which recipients are receiving benefits and the level of benefits
received. Presumably, those recipients are eligible to receive
those benefits. He noted that there is an appeal process for
clients who feel that they have not received the proper benefit.
An unhappy client would first appeal to TCC, then to the
department, and to the court system.
MR. NORDLUND mentioned that the federal government has criteria for
the block grant as well. The federal government has auditing
procedures and performance measures for the Native organization.
Furthermore, the department has normal auditing procedures to which
the Native organization would be subject.
Number 1921
TERRY HOEFFERLE, Chief of Operations, Bristol Bay Native
Association (BBNA), testified via teleconference from Anchorage.
He was impressed with the knowledgeable level of discussion. The
federal TANF legislation identified 13 organizations in Alaska as
eligible to operate local programs of which 12 are regional Native
nonprofits and the Metlakatla Indian Community. Some regional
organizations have already indicated that they are not interested
in operating their own family assistance program. He noted that
some of the regional organizations are too small to operate such a
program.
MR. HOEFFERLE informed the committee that BBNA was established in
1966 and most of the other organizations are over 30 years old.
These organizations were created to resolve Native land claims in
Alaska. Although the regional boundaries of the regional Native
nonprofits correspond to the regional for profit Native
corporations, the two should not be confused. These 12 regional
Native nonprofits operate Indian programs which include health and
social service programs. These tribal programs bring in over $400
million per year to the state. Mr. Hoefferle described these
tribal programs as Indian funded dollars which could be viewed as
authorized by the U.S. Congress as treaty obligations. Mr.
Hoefferle informed the committee that these organizations contract
with various federal agencies each of which has its own programming
and reporting requirements that must be followed. He noted that
the Native nonprofits also operate state contracts and grants for
a diverse group of programs such as Village Public Safety and
Healthy Families to name a few.
MR. HOEFFERLE informed the committee that BBNA provides services in
32 villages in the Bristol Bay region. The BBNA Board of Directors
has a member from each village as well as six members at large.
This year BBNA has a $16 million budget and 302 employees, of which
68 are located in the central office in Dillingham and the
remaining 234 employees are located in the villages in the region.
Within the villages, the BBNA employees are employed in various
capacities from the Village Public Safety Officer to Tribal
Children Service Workers.
Number 1526
MR. HOEFFERLE identified the major focus of BBNA, as well as other
Native nonprofits in Alaska, as placing Native people in the
workforce. Today BBNA has a workforce development budget of $1.2
million which is used for employment training, higher education
scholarships, child care, and general assistance. Although these
are Indian Program funds, these funds can be used to leverage some
of the ATAP funds. The aforementioned programs are worked out of
a one-stop shop workforce development center in Dillingham. BBNA
created this one-stop shop using its own administrative dollars.
The State of Alaska is co-locating some of its similar programs
into the office structure. Mr. Hoefferle pointed out that BBNA has
an agreement with the Alaska Department of Labor to operate a
computer which has access to the department's information system.
Also the Department of Community & Regional Affairs has co-located
its peer outreach workforce program in the BBNA offices.
MR. HOEFFERLE agreed with Representative Kookesh's comments that
his interest in HB 98 is not to guarantee the Native nonprofits
survival. The manner in which BBNA operates the aforementioned
programs requires an administrative rate, an indirect cost rate,
which is much lower than that of the University of Alaska, the
State of Alaska, or the U.S. government. Mr. Hoefferle explained
that assessment was determined from the indirect rate the state and
federal governments have applied to disaster assistance funds
coming in to Bristol Bay. The interest in administering this
program emanates from the BBNA's local presence and resources in
the region. Mr. Hoefferle stated that BBNA can do a better job
moving "our" people from welfare to work than the state. The state
program is operated via a long-distance phone call to Anchorage.
Number 1212
DON SHIRCEL, Director, Family Services, Tanana Chiefs Council,
testified via teleconference from Fairbanks. He informed the
committee that since October 1, 1998 the TCC has operated the TANF
program, which is called the Athabascan Self-Sufficiency Assistance
Partnership (ASAP), for Native households. The TCC service area
encompasses over a third of the entire state. During the first
three months of programming, TCC has transitioned over 500 Native
household cases which is about one-third of the Division of Public
Assistance's Northern region case load. Since mid December, TCC
has been the sole agency determining eligibility, processing
applications, and providing timely benefits to over 450 Native
households in over 40 rural communities and in Fairbanks, Alaska's
second largest city. Mr. Shircel discussed the intricacies of
initiating and setting up structures for this program.
MR. SHIRCEL stated that it is still too early to make projections
to the full impact of the privatization of welfare services under
the TCC ASAP program. In six months of operation, the TCC has not
had any formal complaints and have been able to engage over 35
percent of the rural caseload in work activities and created
one-stop service centers in 38 remote rural communities. The state
has not been able to do either on the same dime, since the
initiation of welfare reform programming. Mr. Shircel emphasized
that tribes are, through their Native organizations, operating
these programs effectively, efficiently, within the constraints of
the organization's budget and with the full support and
participation of over 40 communities. Mr. Shircel echoed Mr.
Nordlund's comments that the TCC would like to do more which would
be allowed under
HB 98. He reiterated the TCC's desire to implement a five percent
reduction in benefits, mandatory alcohol and substance abuse
screening, a voucher system for clients suspected of misuse of
welfare benefits, stronger sanctions for nonparticipation in work
activities, stronger sanctions in domestic violence cases, and
incentives for parents to participate in parent-teacher conferences
and children's health screenings. Mr. Shircel said that he would
appreciate the committee's serious consideration of moving HB 98
out of committee and the legislator's support this session.
There being no one else wishing to testify, the public testimony
was closed.
Number 0867
CO-CHAIRMAN HALCRO moved CSHB 98 out of committee with individual
recommendations and the attached zero fiscal note. There being no
objection, CSHB 98(CRA) was reported out of committee.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Community & Regional Affairs Standing Committee meeting was
adjourned at 9:36 a.m.
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