Legislature(2015 - 2016)BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)

01/28/2016 09:00 AM ADMINISTRATIVE REGULATION REVIEW


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09:03:51 AM Start
09:04:49 AM Department of Environmental Conservation Proposed Cleanup Level Amendments for 18 Aac 75
10:19:17 AM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
Dept. of Environmental Conservation - Proposed
Cleanup Level Amendments for 18 AAC 75 by
Kristin Ryan, Director of Spill Prevention &
Response
-- Public Testimony --
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
           ADMINISTRATIVE REGULATION REVIEW COMMITTEE                                                                         
                        January 28, 2016                                                                                        
                           9:03 a.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Jim Colver, Vice Chair                                                                                           
Senator Mia Costello                                                                                                            
Senator Berta Gardner                                                                                                           
Representative Mike Hawker                                                                                                      
Representative Adam Wool                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Lesil McGuire, Chair                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION PROPOSED CLEANUP LEVEL                                                                 
AMENDMENTS FOR 18 AAC 75                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
          - HEARD                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to record                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
KRISTIN RYAN, Director                                                                                                          
Division of Spill Prevention and Response                                                                                       
Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC)                                                                                  
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Discussed the proposed cleanup level                                                                     
amendments for 18 AAC 75.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
RALPH HULBERT, representing himself                                                                                             
AlasChem Engineering                                                                                                            
Palmer, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Commented on the proposed cleanup level                                                                  
amendments for 18 AAC 75.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
LARRY ACOMB, Environmental Consultant                                                                                           
Geosphere, Inc.                                                                                                                 
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Commented  on the  proposed cleanup  level                                                             
amendments for 18 AAC 75.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                              
9:03:51 AM                                                                                                                  
VICE  CHAIR  JIM  COLVER  called  the  Administrative  Regulation                                                             
Review Committee  meeting to order at  9:03 a.m.  Present  at the                                                               
call   to  order   were  Senators   Costello   and  Gardner   and                                                               
Representatives Wool and Vice Chair Colver.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
^Department of Environmental  Conservation Proposed Cleanup Level                                                               
Amendments for 18 AAC 75                                                                                                        
Department of Environmental Conservation Proposed Cleanup Level                                                             
                    Amendments for 18 AAC 75                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:04:49 AM                                                                                                                    
VICE CHAIR COLVER announced the  committee would hear a review of                                                               
the  Department  of  Environmental  Conservation  (DEC)  proposed                                                               
cleanup  level amendments  for 18  AAC 75.  Because the  proposed                                                               
regulations  have  generated  such   concern  from  experts,  the                                                               
purpose of  the hearing is  to shine  a light on  their relevance                                                               
and necessity, he said.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:05:38 AM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER joined the committee.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:06:03 AM                                                                                                                    
KRISTIN  RYAN,   Director,  Division  of  Spill   Prevention  and                                                               
Response, Department of  Environmental Conservation (DEC), stated                                                               
that the division is responsible  for the immediate response to a                                                               
spill  and oversight  of long-term  mitigation. The  Contaminated                                                               
Sites   Program  oversees   long-term   cleanup  of   contaminant                                                               
releases,  but has  not updated  the regulations  for quite  some                                                               
time. What  the committee is  interested in today, she  said, are                                                               
the  updates to  one of  the tables  in the  proposed regulations                                                               
regarding cleanup  levels for soil  and groundwater and  how they                                                               
are calculated  for contaminated  sites. She emphasized  that the                                                               
new numbers are based on new science.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
She explained  that the division  held three public  workshops to                                                               
discuss the  proposed changes; one  was teleconferenced,  one was                                                               
held in Anchorage,  and one was held in  Fairbanks. She described                                                               
the regulations for  contaminated sites as a  cafeteria plan with                                                               
a variety of  options available to a responsible party  who has a                                                               
contamination release.  The table  under discussion today  is one                                                               
option  that is  similar to  a general  permit. It's  a one-size-                                                               
fits-all approach  and is  meant to protect  human health  in all                                                               
situations. A second  option available to a  responsible party is                                                               
a more  customized cleanup process.  She noted that  the division                                                               
has been  updating the  manuals and  calculators to  simplify the                                                               
customized  process. She  assured  the committee  that there  are                                                               
multiple options  available to a  responsible party  to determine                                                               
the best  and most cost-effective  way to clean  up contamination                                                               
that has occurred.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN related that the  division received quite a few comments                                                               
on the proposed regulations and  is now in a deliberative process                                                               
deciding how  to accommodate the articulated  concerns before the                                                               
regulation package is finalized  and adopted. She emphasized that                                                               
the decisions about the proposed  contaminant levels are based on                                                               
the best  science available about  the risks associated  with the                                                               
different  contaminants. The  driving focus  in the  proposed new                                                               
levels is  to do no harm  to human health. She  offered to answer                                                               
questions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:11:25 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR COSTELLO  asked what statute  provides DEC  the authority                                                               
to make these regulatory changes.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN said she would follow up with the specific statute.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL asked  if the  table includes  just the  new                                                               
requirements.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN  explained that  the table  was repealed  and readopted.                                                               
Returning  to Senator  Costello's question,  she advised  that AS                                                               
46.09.020  gives  the  department   broad  authority  to  develop                                                               
guidelines for setting up cleanup of hazardous substances.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   WOOL  expressed   interest  in   a  side-by-side                                                               
comparison of the old and new contamination numbers.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN agreed to provide a comparison.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
VICE  CHAIR  COLVER  asked  if DEC  is  adopting  more  stringent                                                               
standards  than the  U.S. Environmental  Protection Agency  (EPA)                                                               
for arsenic in groundwater.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN answered yes; the  proposed standard is higher than what                                                               
public water  systems have to  meet for  water that comes  out of                                                               
the  tap.   The  standard  for  public   drinking  water  systems                                                               
considers many  different factors, including the  ability for the                                                               
water system to  treat the water. The levels DEC  is obligated to                                                               
establish are  for groundwater, which  can be used for  a variety                                                               
of things.  She clarified  that the  proposed regulations  do not                                                               
change the  requirements for arsenic  removal for  drinking water                                                               
systems  in the  state.  The proposed  regulations establish  the                                                               
cleanup level  a responsible  party is  expected to  achieve when                                                               
they have released arsenic into the environment.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN  said the division  is trying  to decide how  to address                                                               
the concerns that the Table reflects  a level for arsenic that is                                                               
lower than  the background level  for a  lot of the  state, while                                                               
also recognizing that that number  is best known to be protective                                                               
of  human  health  and  the environment.  That  being  said,  she                                                               
assured members that  DEC does not expect a  responsible party to                                                               
cleanup a contaminated site to  more than the background level in                                                               
the particular site.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
VICE CHAIR  COLVER asked  if DEC would  be flexible  in enforcing                                                               
these regulations based  on the existence or  absence of baseline                                                               
data on  the levels  of naturally occurring  arsenic in  soil and                                                               
groundwater.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN answered yes, but  the expectation is that a responsible                                                               
party will  need to collect  samples to  prove that they  did not                                                               
contribute  more   arsenic  to   the  environment   than  existed                                                               
previously. She  advised that  just 100 sites  in the  state have                                                               
been identified  as having arsenic  as a contaminate  of concern.                                                               
She  also noted  that DEC  has  a lot  of background  information                                                               
about arsenic,  particularly around  military bases, and  is able                                                               
to utilize that information for nearby sites.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:20:37 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR COSTELLO read AS 46.09.020  and commented that it appears                                                               
as though  there is a  conversation between the entity  doing the                                                               
cleanup and the  department, but it isn't clear  that the section                                                               
actually provides the authority to make the regulatory changes.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN  replied their statutory  authority is mingled  with the                                                               
statute  on  spills, and  is  based  on immediate  response.  The                                                               
statute relating to longer term  remediation was added later. She                                                               
confirmed that DEC  does have a conversation at  most sites about                                                               
what and how much the responsible  party is expected to clean up,                                                               
but there's a lot of give and  take weighing what is good for the                                                               
community   and    the   environment.   Often    they   establish                                                               
institutional controls which allows  the contamination to stay in                                                               
the ground if  it is determined to be  unfeasible or uneconomical                                                               
to remove.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:24:18 AM                                                                                                                    
VICE CHAIR COLVER opened public testimony.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:24:29 AM                                                                                                                    
RALPH HULBERT,  representing himself, AlasChem  Engineering, said                                                               
everybody  that commented  on the  proposed arsenic  levels being                                                               
below  the background  levels should  understand that  arsenic in                                                               
the  groundwater   has  to  do  with   the  historic  groundwater                                                               
chemistry,  not surface  arsenic.  He opined  that  this is  more                                                               
complex than what the CSP has  in any of its guidance. He pointed                                                               
out  that the  CSP  for arsenic  describes  altered or  disturbed                                                               
areas that may contain naturally  occurring arsenic, but it's not                                                               
possible to prove that something  was added. He also commented on                                                               
the problems  with the  proposed chromium  levels, the  limits on                                                               
polycyclic  aromatic hydrocarbons,  and  the problems  associated                                                               
with the proposed  cleanup levels of volatiles.  He concluded his                                                               
comments  suggesting  that a  valid  and  robust risk  management                                                               
policy is needed.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
9:31:52 AM                                                                                                                    
VICE CHAIR COLVER  asked what the proposed  regulations will mean                                                               
in the field.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. HULBERT replied a lot of  time and money will be spent lining                                                               
up to talk to DEC.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
VICE CHAIR COLVER  asked if it's fair to say  that the additional                                                               
DEC staff proposed to interface  with the business community will                                                               
drive up costs for the state.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HULBERT replied  globally yes  but individually  no, because                                                               
DEC has a policy to bill everybody for their conversations.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
VICE  CHAIR  COLVER  asked  what  the impact  will  be  if  these                                                               
regulations are adopted.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HULBERT  opined that  the  aggressive  remediation that  DEC                                                               
seems to  prefer will most  likely cause more human  health risks                                                               
than they will solve.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:35:59 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR COSTELLO  asked Ms.  Ryan if  the department  charges for                                                               
the time it spends talking to the party it is working with.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN  answered yes; the  division is statutorily  required to                                                               
recover all costs.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  COSTELLO asked  if that  includes  conversations on  the                                                               
telephone and in person.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN  replied DEC doesn't  bill for  telephone conversations,                                                               
but the clock generally  is turned on when they go  out to a site                                                               
and have more lengthy conversations.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR COSTELLO cited  the statute and asked  if the responsible                                                               
party is charged if the state takes over the remediation.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN said that is correct,  but that statute was intended for                                                               
spill response  and the need  for an immediate response  to limit                                                               
the risk  to the environment.  She didn't recall that  being done                                                               
on a contaminated site.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL asked  if she said that the  arsenic level in                                                               
the table reflects the level for drinking water.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN  replied the table  does not reflect drinking  water. It                                                               
reflects ground  water, which can  be used for drinking  water or                                                               
any other activity.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  GARDNER  asked  her  to  speak to  the  risk  to  humans                                                               
associated with the cleanup of  arsenic as opposed to leaving the                                                               
arsenic in the ground. She  noted that insurance requirements are                                                               
perhaps reflecting the high risks associated with exposure.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN said any kind of cleanup  has to be done by a contractor                                                               
who knows  how to  control the risks  to ensure  that individuals                                                               
aren't exposed to  unsafe levels of a contaminant.  Every site is                                                               
different,  but DEC  oftentimes  allows the  contaminant to  stay                                                               
where  it is  and  naturally attenuate.  Cleanup  is required  in                                                               
situations where the public might be exposed.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:42:50 AM                                                                                                                    
LARRY ACOMB,  Environmental Consultant, Geosphere, Inc.,  said he                                                               
typically  works as  a subcontractor  to larger  consulting firms                                                               
and the responsible party generally  is the federal government or                                                               
a large oil company.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
He said  the technical issues  with the proposed  regulations are                                                               
well  documented  and should  be  used  as  a starting  point  to                                                               
continue the  revision of the  regulations. He stressed  that DEC                                                               
should not try  to promulgate the regulations  without going back                                                               
out   for   public  comment   and   without   working  with   the                                                               
environmental  professionals  in  the   community  to  solve  the                                                               
problems  with  the  current regulation  package.  He  cited  the                                                               
example  of the  use  of the  Andelman equation  in  some of  the                                                               
calculations of drinking water cleanup levels.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ACOMB  said Ms.  Ryan  indicated  that there  are  alternate                                                               
options for calculating cleanup levels,  but DEC doesn't offer an                                                               
alternative  to the  Andelman equation  that's used  to calculate                                                               
Table  C groundwater  cleanup levels.  The  ramification of  that                                                               
ripples throughout the rest of the regulations, he said.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
VICE CHAIR COLVER asked him to expand on the last statement.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.   ACOMB  explained   that  the   EPA   uses  the   relatively                                                               
conservative Andelman  equation to  set screening levels  but not                                                               
for  conducting  risk  calculations or  for  setting  alternative                                                               
cleanup  levels at  sites. DEC  proposes to  use the  equation to                                                               
assess the  concentration of contaminants that  volatize from tap                                                               
water in residential use, and  effectively offers no alternative.                                                               
The  result of  that  calculation  is used  to  set  the Table  C                                                               
cleanup levels  and those values  are used in the  calculation of                                                               
the  other soil  cleanup  levels  listed in  Table  B1. Thus  the                                                               
statement that  the ramifications of using  the Andelman equation                                                               
ripple through the rest of  the regulations. He described this as                                                               
a technical detail that has great significance.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:48:54 AM                                                                                                                    
MR. ACOMB maintained  that the requirement for DEC  to assess the                                                               
impact  of   the  proposed  regulation   changes  has   not  been                                                               
adequately   addressed.  He   relayed   that  he   is  making   a                                                               
presentation at the Alaska Forum  on the Environment in two weeks                                                               
and  part  of  that  will  be  to  quantify  some  of  the  costs                                                               
associated  with the  regulation  change package.  He offered  to                                                               
share the calculations, noting it  will be a crude quantification                                                               
but more than currently exists in the DEC documentation.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
VICE CHAIR COLVER  confirmed the committee would  like to receive                                                               
the information.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL  asked if  using  the  Andelman equation  in                                                               
Table C and  using that calculation to determine  values in Table                                                               
B1 is a new methodology.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. ACOMB  replied it's an  old equation, but  what's significant                                                               
is that this  is the first time  that DEC has looked  at the risk                                                               
of breathing volatiles that emanate from contaminated tap water.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL  asked  if  all  the  levels  are  based  on                                                               
ingesting or  breathing volatiles from  tap water and  then those                                                               
levels  are  reverse  engineered  for  groundwater.  He  posed  a                                                               
hypothetical example involving arsenic.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. ACOMB  said that's generally  correct, but not  the reference                                                               
to arsenic  because it isn't  a volatile organic  compound (VOC).                                                               
He  reiterated that  this is  the first  time DEC  has considered                                                               
volatilization  from  groundwater  and dermal  contact,  and  the                                                               
volatilization  from  tap  water   or  groundwater  is  the  more                                                               
restrictive pathway.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
VICE CHAIR COLVER asked him to continue his testimony.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. ACOMB  said he  is pointing out  technical details,  but they                                                               
need to be ironed out  before the regulations are implemented. He                                                               
again suggested  that DEC use  the existing comments and  not try                                                               
to implement  the regulation package  without first  working with                                                               
environmental professionals  in the community. He  noted that Ms.                                                               
Ryan  said  DEC is  trying  to  develop human  health  risk-based                                                               
cleanup levels  but the proposed regulations  cap the groundwater                                                               
and soil concentrations at the  Csat or solubility values instead                                                               
of  using risk-based  concentrations.  So not  everything in  the                                                               
Table  is  truly   risk-based,  he  said,  and   that  should  be                                                               
corrected.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
He highlighted  that DEC also  said there are other  options than                                                               
using  the table  value,  but those  options  won't be  available                                                               
until DEC  updates the calculations  for the new  exposure routes                                                               
it wants to  address in the proposed  regulations. In particular,                                                               
the  hydrocarbon  risk calculator  should  be  available for  the                                                               
individual  compounds  before  the regulations  are  promulgated.                                                               
However,  the equations  that drive  that tool  first need  to be                                                               
reviewed by DEC  and the environmental community  to make certain                                                               
that  it is  doing  what they  want  it  to do.  If  the tool  is                                                               
revised, it would  have to include the Andelman  equation or some                                                               
alternative, but there's  been no decision about what  would be a                                                               
good alternative.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
VICE  CHAIR   COLVER  summarized   that  the   environmental  and                                                               
scientific  community  believes  that DEC  should  reopen  public                                                               
comment,  work  with  the  professionals in  the  field  and  the                                                               
private sector  to retool this  regulation, and develop  the [the                                                               
hydrocarbon   risk  calculator]   tool  before   proceeding  with                                                               
implementation.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. ACOMB  answered yes, but  the first step  is for DEC  to work                                                               
with environmental professionals in  the community to address the                                                               
technical  concerns  that  have  been brought  up.  He  suggested                                                               
convening  several  working  groups   to  address  the  different                                                               
issues.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
VICE  CHAIR COLVER  asked  him  to give  his  perspective of  the                                                               
public comment periods that DEC held.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. ACOMB  characterized the October  14 workshop he  attended as                                                               
an overview  or introduction to the  proposed regulation package.                                                               
It  was  well  attended  and   people  from  the  audience  asked                                                               
questions and  brought up issues.  He said a conversation  that a                                                               
DEC chemist and three chemists  in the audience had about arsenic                                                               
demonstrates the  type of input  the environmental  community can                                                               
offer  that  could  help  DEC   develop  a  better,  more  easily                                                               
implemented package of regulations.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
10:01:33 AM                                                                                                                   
SENATOR  COSTELLO  asked  if  the  proposed  regulations  require                                                               
reopening sites that were previously closed.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. ACOMB  said if DEC  decided to evaluate how  these regulation                                                               
changes  impact closed  sites, there  is the  potential for  many                                                               
sites to be reopened.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR GARDNER  thanked Mr.  Acomb for  his testimony  saying it                                                               
gave her a template for thinking about these issues.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL asked  if the  new levels  are based  on new                                                               
science or new methodology.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. ACOMB offered his belief that  the decision to assess risk of                                                               
inhalation of  volatiles in tap  water caused DEC to  include the                                                               
Andelman  equation.   It's  a  simple  but   overly  conservative                                                               
equation,  which  is why  the  EPA  only  uses it  for  screening                                                               
purposes.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
10:05:58 AM                                                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER asked Ms. Ryan  to clarify where the agency                                                               
is  in the  process of  promulgating these  regulations and  what                                                               
steps it  anticipates taking to  resolve the questions  that have                                                               
been raised.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RYAN said  the extended  comment period  has closed  and the                                                               
workshops were a success. The  comments have been informative and                                                               
the  regulation  drafting process  has  been  productive. DEC  is                                                               
still reviewing  the comments and  she didn't know what  the next                                                               
steps would be.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HAWKER asked  if DEC  intends to  incorporate the                                                               
points that  have been raised  into a revised  regulatory package                                                               
or move forward with the package as originally promulgated.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN replied  they definitely will make changes  based on the                                                               
comments, but  she didn't  know if  they'd go  back out  for more                                                               
public comment.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
10:09:34 AM                                                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE  HAWKER  summarized  that   DEC  intends  to  make                                                               
changes to  the original regulatory  package but isn't  sure when                                                               
or how  those changes will be  made and isn't sure  if there will                                                               
be additional public comment.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN agreed with the summary.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HAWKER  offered  the following  counsel  for  the                                                               
agency:                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Kristin,  if I  look  at the  package  that we've  been                                                                    
     provided,  which  is  basically  the  entirety  of  the                                                                    
     published public comment, and  quite frankly and in the                                                                    
     hypothetical if  I completely  discount and  ignore all                                                                    
     the  comments  from  corporate  and  business  entities                                                                    
     under the hypothetical  presumption that they're simply                                                                    
     out for  their own  best economic interests  and really                                                                    
     do not  have the  interests that  you are  charged with                                                                    
     regulating  as  their  primary  objective.  Let's  just                                                                    
     discount them;  completely take them off  the board and                                                                    
     not consider them.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     That leaves me with  the comments from other government                                                                    
     regulatory  agencies,  particularly the  Department  of                                                                    
     the   Army,  the   Department  of   Defense  and   most                                                                    
     particularly   the  U.S.   Army  Corps   of  Engineers'                                                                    
     comments on  your regulations. And  since the  Army and                                                                    
     the  Department of  Defense have  had  some really  bad                                                                    
     experiences  in  Alaska and  have  left  us with  some,                                                                    
     literally some  tragic environmental  challenges, let's                                                                    
     take  them  off  the  board and  presume  they're  just                                                                    
     trying to protect themselves.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     But let's  look at the  Corps of Engineers.  They serve                                                                    
     the  regulatory purpose  that  we do  as  well. I  mean                                                                    
     they're the guys that we  have to go to for permitting,                                                                    
     for  corporate  projects,   for  engineering  projects,                                                                    
     water projects.  They're the guys  that have  a similar                                                                    
     mission to you.  So if we confine  our examination only                                                                    
     to their  comments on your regulations,  I would really                                                                    
     ask you to look at those comments.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     To me  they are a  really significant criticism  of the                                                                    
     entirety of  your package of regulations.  I think they                                                                    
     point  out that  they  are basically  not doable;  they                                                                    
     create  standards that  are  unachievable; they  create                                                                    
     a... You  can go through  the whole thing, but  I think                                                                    
     the  points raised  by the  Corps of  Engineers are  an                                                                    
     absolutely  succinct statement,  an encapsulation  from                                                                    
     another  government   regulatory  agency  of   all  the                                                                    
     comments that have been placed  on record. And I've got                                                                    
     to tell  you personally,  I as  a legislature  would be                                                                    
     really, really  and have incredible problems  with your                                                                    
     going forward  with a regulatory package  that does not                                                                    
     directly  and  publically   address  the  problems  and                                                                    
     issues raised by  the Corps of Engineers,  and that you                                                                    
     specifically   -  because   there  are   such  manifest                                                                    
     problems with  these regulations - that  you absolutely                                                                    
     must  take  these out  for  a  complete review,  public                                                                    
     review  so the  other entities  who do  have legitimate                                                                    
     concerns raised,  have a  second bite  at the  apple to                                                                    
     work this through with you.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     But again, if you use  the Corps of Engineers' comments                                                                    
     as  your roadmap,  I think  you're on  the right  trail                                                                    
     here.  And  again,  this  is   when  I  would  strongly                                                                    
     admonish you  to take that approach  and recognize that                                                                    
     this package  is just not  ready for prime time.  And I                                                                    
     appreciate  you indulging  my  thoughts there  Kristin,                                                                    
     and I know you'll pass it up the line.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
10:13:08 AM                                                                                                                   
VICE  CHAIR COLVER  concurred with  the comments  and noted  that                                                               
other committee  members were nodding  in agreement. He  said the                                                               
committee  can't  necessarily mandate  anything,  but  it is  the                                                               
public's voice and interface with  the agencies to bring light to                                                               
issues in an effort to do a better job.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  COSTELLO agreed  with  Representative Hawker's  comments                                                               
and said  she would be grieved  to learn that the  department may                                                               
not  go  out for  another  round  of  public comments.  She  also                                                               
pointed  out that  the EPA  only uses  the Andelman  equation for                                                               
screening  purposes and  DEC  proposes using  it  to set  cleanup                                                               
levels  despite  the fact  that  AS  46.09.020(a)(1)(B) says  the                                                               
department's  guidelines   shall  be  consistent   with  national                                                               
guidelines.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
10:16:19 AM                                                                                                                   
MS. RYAN  explained that the  national contingency  plan referred                                                               
to in  statute is a  specific document related to  spill response                                                               
so it doesn't apply in this situation.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR COSTELLO  asked which statute provides  DEC the authority                                                               
for the proposed regulations.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. RYAN replied  it is the beginning of that  section as well as                                                               
some  other broad  authorities the  department  has to  establish                                                               
regulations.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
10:17:23 AM                                                                                                                   
VICE  CHAIR  COLVER  recommended  the committee  draft  a  letter                                                               
directing DEC  to revise  the regulations for  18 AAC  75, submit                                                               
the  package  to  a  working  group  of  experts  and  government                                                               
entities, and  then open a  public comment period. He  noted nods                                                               
of  approval  and  opined  that  the  consensus  is  that  it  is                                                               
inappropriate to move  forward with the adoption  of the proposed                                                               
regulations at this time.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
10:19:17 AM                                                                                                                   
There being  no further  business to  come before  the committee,                                                               
Vice Chair Colver adjourned  the Administrative Regulation Review                                                               
Committee at 10:19 a.m.