Legislature(2017 - 2018)GRUENBERG 120

04/10/2017 07:00 PM STATE AFFAIRS

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07:04:40 PM Start
07:04:46 PM HB74
09:24:57 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
-- Continued from 4/8/17 --
+= HB 74 DRIVER'S LICENSE & ID CARDS & REAL ID ACT TELECONFERENCED
Moved CSHB 74(STA) Out of Committee
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
        HB 74-DRIVER'S LICENSE & ID CARDS & REAL ID ACT                                                                     
                                                                                                                              
7:04:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  announced that  the only order  of business                                                               
would  be   HOUSE  BILL   NO.  74,  "An   Act  relating   to  the                                                               
implementation of the  federal REAL ID Act of  2005; and relating                                                               
to issuance  of identification cards  and driver's  licenses; and                                                               
providing  for  an  effective  date."    [Before  the  committee,                                                               
adopted as  a work draft  during the 4/4/17, 5:40  p.m., meeting,                                                               
was the committee substitute (CS) for HB 74, Version 30-                                                                        
GH1781\J, Martin, 4/4/17, hereafter referred to as "Version J".]                                                                
                                                                                                                                
7:06:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REID  MAGDANZ,  Staff,  Representative Jonathan  Kreiss  Tomkins,                                                               
Alaska  State Legislature,  on behalf  of Representative  Kreiss-                                                               
Tomkins,  prime  sponsor  of  HB   74,  presented  the  committee                                                               
substitute (CS), labeled  30-GH1781\U, Martin, 4/10/17 [hereafter                                                               
referred to as "Version U"], with  the use of a handout, entitled                                                               
"HB  74 Summary  of Changes,  ver J  to ver  U," included  in the                                                               
committee packet.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MAGDANZ stated  that in  Section 1,  the fee  for a  REAL ID                                                               
compliant identification (ID) card is  increased from $10 to $20,                                                               
incorporating Amendment  3, adopted  by the committee  on 4/6/17,                                                               
into the proposed legislation.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MAGDANZ relayed  that  Amendment 1,  adopted  on 4/8/17,  is                                                               
incorporated  into  Section  2.    [Amendment  1  refers  to  the                                                               
inclusion of  Department of  Administration (DOA)  information on                                                               
the application  for ID  cards and  driver's licenses  to explain                                                               
the  options  and  require  the   applicant  to  indicate  he/she                                                               
understands the options and to select an option.]                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ relayed  that Section 3 addresses the  issuance of ID                                                               
cards.   Section 3,  subsection (m), is  amended to  clarify that                                                               
when DOA issues  a REAL ID compliant ID card,  it may retain only                                                               
the minimum  documents required by the  REAL ID Act and  no more;                                                               
and it  shall destroy any  documents retained as soon  as legally                                                               
allowed to do so.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MAGDANZ  said  that  in   Section  3,  subsection  (n),  two                                                               
sentences  from the  original version  [Version A]  of HB  74 are                                                               
added.  They  are:  The proposed  legislation explicitly requires                                                               
DOA to continue issuing noncompliant  ID cards.  It requires that                                                               
the   state  and   municipal  government   treat  compliant   and                                                               
noncompliant ID cards the same.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ  related that Section  3, subsection  (o), introduces                                                               
new,  but not  substantive, language  recommended by  Legislative                                                               
Legal and Research Services.   Language from the Alaska Statutes,                                                               
Title 28  - allowing  DOA to  issue a  driver's license  for less                                                               
than eight  years, if the applicant  is legally allowed to  be in                                                               
the U.S.  for less than eight  years - is replicated  in Title 18                                                               
as it pertains to ID cards.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ stated that Section  3, subsection (p), is amended to                                                               
address more generally  the purposes for which  REAL ID compliant                                                               
ID  cards will  be required;  the  change relates  to the  public                                                               
information  DOA must  share concerning  the differences  between                                                               
compliant and noncompliant ID cards.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ  relayed that Section  3, subsection (q),  is amended                                                               
to clarify  that the definition  of "identification card  that is                                                               
federally compliant" applies to a state issued ID card only.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ said  that Section 4 is substantially  changed.  This                                                               
section addresses  the limitations on  DOA for sharing  data with                                                               
interstate databases or pointer  systems.  Language objectionable                                                               
to DOA, pertaining to data sharing  outside the scope of REAL ID,                                                               
is removed.   Section 4 also  is changed to clarify  that DOA may                                                               
convey,  distribute,  or  communicate  data only  to  the  extent                                                               
absolutely required  by the  REAL ID  Act; that  is, only  to the                                                               
extent  necessary  for the  state  to  be  certified as  REAL  ID                                                               
compliant by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS).                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
7:10:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MAGDANZ stated  that the  changes  to Section  5 mirror  the                                                               
changes to  Section 3 but  apply to driver's licenses  instead of                                                               
ID cards.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MAGDANZ indicated  that new  language  is incorporated  into                                                               
Section  6,  which is  the  language  from Amendment  1,  adopted                                                               
4/8/17.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ relayed  that there are no changes to  Section 7.  He                                                               
said that "federally compliant" is  removed from Section 8, which                                                               
specifies that  driver's licenses  issued to people  with limited                                                               
authorization  of   standing  in  the  U.S.   must  be  federally                                                               
compliant.   He  mentioned  that on  page 6,  line  14, the  word                                                               
"shall" is replaced with "may".                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ  offered that there are  no changes to Section  9 and                                                               
Section 10.  He stated that in Section  11, the fee for a REAL ID                                                               
compliant  driver's  license  is   increased  from  $10  to  $20,                                                               
incorporating Amendment  3, adopted  by the committee  on 4/6/17,                                                               
into the proposed legislation.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ said that in  Section 12, the definition of "driver's                                                               
license that is  federally compliant" is amended  to clarify that                                                               
it applies to a state issued driver's license only.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
7:13:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX  asked  if  under  Version  U,  the  issue                                                               
brought  to the  committee  by Representative  Birch [during  the                                                               
3/28/17, 3:08 p.m.,  meeting] would be resolved.  [The  wife of a                                                               
constituent is a  Japanese national with a green  card without an                                                               
expiration  date;  therefore,  must renew  her  driver's  license                                                               
annually.]                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ  replied that  the problem would  be resolved.   With                                                               
the change from  "shall" to "may" on page 6,  lines 14-15, DOA no                                                               
longer would  be required to  issue a one-year license  to anyone                                                               
with an indefinite  period of stay in the U.S.  but may now issue                                                               
it for the "full term."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  responded that she interprets  the passage                                                               
as  stating that  DOA  may or  may  not issue  a  license with  a                                                               
validity  of one  year.   She suggested  that the  language could                                                               
mean that  DOA has  the option  of not issuing  a license  with a                                                               
validity  of one  year.    She opined  that  Version  U does  not                                                               
address issuing a license for more than one year.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MAGDANZ expressed  his understanding  that the  inclusion of                                                               
the word  "shall" required DOA  to issue  a license for  only one                                                               
year to  someone with a permanent  green card.  He  said that DOA                                                               
supports issuing  those licenses for  more than one year;  it was                                                               
prohibited from  doing so  by the  current statute;  and changing                                                               
"shall" to "may"  will permit DOA to issue licenses  for a longer                                                               
period.  He added that DOA supports this change for this reason.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX referred  to the language on  page 6, lines                                                               
14-15, of  Version U,  which read, "If  the period  of authorized                                                               
stay is indefinite,  the department may issue the  license with a                                                               
validity of one year."  She  maintained that under Version U, DOA                                                               
may issue  the license for  one year or not  at all; it  does not                                                               
address DOA issuing a license for eight or ten years.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
7:16:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL  STANKER, Assistant  Attorney  General,  Labor and  State                                                               
Affairs Section,  Civil Division  (Anchorage), Department  of Law                                                               
(DOL), stated  that the position  of the Department of  Law (DOL)                                                               
is that  changing the wording  from "shall"  to "may" on  page 6,                                                               
line 14,  will allow DMV to  issue licenses for a  period greater                                                               
than  one year  for  a person  with an  authorized  stay that  is                                                               
indefinite.  He gave two reasons  for its position:  1) the first                                                               
sentence of subsection  (d) on Page 6, Section  8, specifies that                                                               
a person may  receive a driver's license with a  duration of less                                                               
than eight years, if that person's  stay in the U.S. is less than                                                               
eight years or indefinite, and 2)  the DMV is authorized to adopt                                                               
regulations, and  through those regulations, DMV  may specify the                                                               
duration of licenses.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  suggested that the bill  language would be                                                               
clearer if it read, "the  department shall issue the license with                                                               
a validity of  up to eight years" instead of  "the department may                                                               
issue the license with a validity of one year".                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANKER agreed  that there  are  other ways  of wording  the                                                               
sentence.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
7:21:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
HILARY MARTIN,  Attorney, Legislative Legal  Counsel, Legislative                                                               
Legal   Services  (LLS),   Legislative   Affairs  Agency   (LAA),                                                               
indicated that the  sentence could be clearer; it  was the result                                                               
of  trying to  adapt  the  new language  to  existing  law.   She                                                               
conceded  that there  could be  ambiguity  regarding whether  the                                                               
"may"  in the  sentence refers  to  the one-year  validity or  to                                                               
issuing  the license.   She  expressed  her belief  that a  court                                                               
would rule that DOA's interpretation  of the language from DOL is                                                               
reasonable;  however, there  are  ways  to draft  it  to make  it                                                               
clearer.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
7:22:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   BIRCH   asked   if    the   governor   and   his                                                               
administration are  satisfied with  Version U, since  the sponsor                                                               
of  the proposed  legislation  is the  House  Rules Committee  by                                                               
request of the Governor.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  suggested the following language:   if the                                                               
period  of  the authorized  stay  is  indefinite, the  department                                                               
shall issue  the license with  a validity  of up to  eight years.                                                               
She maintained that is clearer.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARTIN  responded that is an  option.  She said  that to avow                                                               
the flexibility,  it could  be worded  "the department  may issue                                                               
the  license with  a validity  set by  regulation".   She offered                                                               
that  including the  word "shall"  means  that DOA  must issue  a                                                               
license.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS  suggested  the drafting  of  a  conceptual                                                               
amendment.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX concurred.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
7:24:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL  agreed  with  Representative  LeDoux.    He                                                               
stated that under Version U,  [page 6, Section 8,] subsection (d)                                                               
states that  a person authorized  to stay  in the U.S.  for three                                                               
years may get a license for  three years.  He maintained that for                                                               
a person  authorized to  stay for an  indefinite period,  such as                                                               
someone with a  green card, the license should be  issued for the                                                               
full extent of the licensure period.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  offered that other language  may be equally                                                               
workable.   He  asked if  Ms. Thompson  had any  issues with  the                                                               
language suggested by Representatives LeDoux and Wool.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
7:25:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MARLA  THOMPSON,  Director,  Division of  Motor  Vehicles  (DMV),                                                               
Department  of Administration  (DOA),  replied that  she did  not                                                               
have a  problem with a  language change;  the intent is  to align                                                               
the wording with  that of the visa or paperwork  of the [resident                                                               
alien] and  to ensure  the licensure period  does not  exceed the                                                               
authorized stay.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
7:26:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KNOPP offered  that the  proposed legislation  is                                                               
ambiguous and  lacks details.   He asked,  "Is this  just another                                                               
bill we're going to pass and then adopt the rules later?"                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARTIN answered that she  is familiar in "broad strokes" with                                                               
the  REAL ID  requirements, and  the proposed  legislation allows                                                               
DOA to adopt regulations to  address the federal requirements for                                                               
issuing compliant driver's licenses or ID cards.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
7:27:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS referred  to the  forthcoming Amendment  4,                                                               
which would offer a "technical fix."   He stated that if adopted,                                                               
Amendment 4 would fix a  typographical error ("typo") by deleting                                                               
"served" on page  5, line 14, of Version U  and replacing it with                                                               
"serve".   He  asked  Ms.  Martin to  address  lines  7-8 of  the                                                               
forthcoming  Amendment  4, [which  would  delete  a reference  to                                                               
federal regulations].                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARTIN  explained that  staff tries not  to refer  to federal                                                               
regulations in statute.   She relayed that  "as amended" language                                                               
means  that Alaska  Statutes would  change any  time the  federal                                                               
regulations  are   changed,  because   the  statutes   are  being                                                               
incorporated  by   reference;  therefore,  a   non-elected,  non-                                                               
legislative body may  make changes causing Alaska  Statutes to be                                                               
changed.    She referred  to  an  Alaska Supreme  Court  decision                                                               
[Northern Lights Motel, Inc. v.  Sweaney], dealing with reference                                                             
to  technical  electrical codes,  which  ruled  that statutes  by                                                               
reference may allow statutes to  be changed without action by the                                                               
legislature.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
7:29:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  referred to questions brought  forth in the                                                               
4/8/17  committee  meeting.   The  first  question was  regarding                                                               
access to  [military] bases  with a  temporary REAL  ID compliant                                                               
card and whether access to  bases varied with the different bases                                                               
and under different branches of the military.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
7:30:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BRIAN   DUFFY,   Director,  Administrative   Services   Division,                                                               
Department of  Military & Veterans' Affairs  (DMVA), relayed that                                                               
he has reached  out to the leadership of  installations in Alaska                                                               
and has  not received a  conclusive response.  He  commented that                                                               
without  REAL  ID  legislation,  the presence  or  absence  of  a                                                               
temporary  driver's  license  would  make  no  difference  in  an                                                               
individual's  ability to  receive  unescorted access  to a  base,                                                               
because the license would be insufficient.   He said that if REAL                                                               
ID legislation passes,  the state will be given  an extension for                                                               
implementation of REAL ID, which  would offer people more time to                                                               
secure or  renew an alternate  form of ID for  unescorted access.                                                               
He  relayed  that  after  a discussion  with  Ms.  Thompson,  his                                                               
understanding is  that if Alaska  allows the issuance of  REAL ID                                                               
compliant driver's  licenses, the temporary  ID for the  seven to                                                               
ten-day period will be a photocopy  of the REAL ID that will come                                                               
in the mail.   He maintained that  in and of itself,  that may be                                                               
sufficient for  the installations  to grant unescorted  access to                                                               
bases; however, he is still trying  to confirm that.  He asserted                                                               
that very few  people will have base issued  passes expiring near                                                               
the implementation date and no other form of ID to access base.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
7:33:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  asked what  a person would  need to  do if                                                               
he/she has  a job on  a base but  no REAL  ID card; she  asked if                                                               
there  was a  [military] base  card a  person could  get using  a                                                               
birth certificate as documentation.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUFFY answered yes.  He  said that for people needing regular                                                               
access to an  installation and who are without  a U.S. Department                                                               
of  Defense  (DoD) issued  ID  card,  the installation  issues  a                                                               
Defense Biometric  Identification System (DBIDS)  card.  It  is a                                                               
base issued  one-year pass.   He  maintained that  to get  such a                                                               
pass, the current Alaska driver's  license has been sufficient to                                                               
date; however, after June 6, if  the state has not passed REAL ID                                                               
legislation, an  Alaska driver's  license will not  be sufficient                                                               
to renew that pass.  He offered  that not all the DBIDS card will                                                               
expire on June 6.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked what form  of ID will be accepted for                                                               
someone to  renew or obtain for  the first time a  DoD base pass,                                                               
if the proposed legislation has not passed.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUFFY responded that he is  a State of Alaska (SOA) employee,                                                               
therefore cannot speak  on behalf of the installations.   He said                                                               
that  he is  part  of an  organization that  is  (indisc) and  is                                                               
speaking from  that perspective.   He  said that  the expectation                                                               
will be for  the individual to secure some other  form of REAL ID                                                               
compliant  ID sufficient  to be  able  to get  the one-year  base                                                               
pass.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX  asked  how   the  [military]  base  would                                                               
function in the event the  proposed legislation does not pass and                                                               
needed workers cannot access the base.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUFFY replied  that the long view is that  the base will move                                                               
on to vendors and people that can access the base.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
7:36:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   KREISS-TOMKINS  referred   to  Representative   Johnson's                                                               
question to  DMV asked during  the 4/8/17  meeting:  Has  the DMV                                                               
received any federal grants to implement REAL ID?                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK mentioned  that Mr. Duffy did  not receive an                                                               
answer  from  base  commanders, who  determine  what  constitutes                                                               
authorization.  He maintained that  he has some questions for Mr.                                                               
Duffy.   He  offered  to submit  his questions  to  Mr. Duffy  in                                                               
writing.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  referred to  page 2,  Question 6,  in the                                                               
letter  from  Deputy  Commissioner  Leslie  Ridle,  DOA,  to  the                                                               
committee  chair,  dated  April  3, 2017,  and  included  in  the                                                               
committee  packet, which  read,  "Have any  state resources  been                                                               
expended  in  outsourcing  the  manufacture  of  Alaskan  IDs  to                                                               
Indiana?"    She  relayed  that  the  response  states  that  DMV                                                               
received  two grants  from the  federal government  to cover  the                                                               
cost of  new cameras and information  technology (IT) development                                                               
necessary  to move  to the  central issuance:   a  $684,804 grant                                                               
from the  Federal Emergency Management  Agency (FEMA) and  a $1.5                                                               
million   grant   from   the   Federal   Motor   Carrier   Safety                                                               
Administration   (FMCSA)   for   software   development,   camera                                                               
equipment, and other productions costs.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                              
7:39:47 PM                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                              
MS. THOMPSON confirmed  that DMV did receive two  grants from the                                                               
federal  government in  2012, but  the  grants were  not REAL  ID                                                               
grants:  one grant  was from FEMA and the other  from FMCSA.  She                                                               
relayed  that  the  grants were  regarding  [the  production  of]                                                               
secure cards.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON asked why  references to these grants were                                                               
included  in  the letter  and  if  the  grants were  intended  to                                                               
facilitate REAL ID production.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS.  THOMPSON answered  that the  letter was  in response  to the                                                               
question, submitted  by Representative Tuck.   She said  that the                                                               
answer  to that  question was  that  DMV received  two grants  to                                                               
cover the  initial set up  fees for producing  driver's licenses.                                                               
She maintained that the funds  were used to reduce costs, upgrade                                                               
technology, and improve customer service.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON stated  that she wanted to  ensure that no                                                               
grants were  awarded to  Alaska to  comply with  the REAL  ID Act                                                               
that required the  state to fulfill any REAL  ID obligations; she                                                               
wanted to ensure that Alaska has  not expended any funds for REAL                                                               
ID,  which the  legislature  prohibited [through  the passage  of                                                               
Senate  Bill 202  in the  Twenty-Fifth Alaska  State Legislature,                                                               
2007-2008].                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  asked Ms. Thompson  if the State  of Alaska                                                               
has any obligations under the  grants received that would require                                                               
the implementation of REAL ID.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON responded no.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
7:42:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS referred  to Representative Knopp's question                                                               
asked  during the  4/8/17  meeting:   How long  will  it take  to                                                               
verify source documents to obtain a REAL ID?                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON  answered that  the goal is  to have  the validation                                                               
process completely  integrated into the  DMV data system  so that                                                               
validation can be  done while the applicant is at  DMV.  She said                                                               
if the  request for a  driver's license  or ID can  be processed,                                                               
DMV  will give  the  applicant  a copy,  and  the applicant  will                                                               
receive the original in the mail in seven to ten days.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KNOPP asked  if a  birth certificate  or passport                                                               
would be validated "while I'm standing there."                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON answered yes.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KNOPP  asked if those  documents would  be scanned                                                               
and kept on file.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON replied  yes, that is correct; it  would be required                                                               
for REAL ID compliance.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KNOPP  asked  if   the  validation  of  just  one                                                               
document would be sufficient for obtaining a REAL ID.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON  responded that other  documents would  be required,                                                               
but  the  passport  and  the  birth  certificate  are  considered                                                               
primary documents, and  one or the other would be  required.  She                                                               
said that if someone presented a  visa or another document on the                                                               
list [of  acceptable documents],  copies would  have to  be made.                                                               
She said,  "Same thing that we  do today, it's just  with REAL ID                                                               
they require you to keep copies."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK asked  if any  other documentation  would be                                                               
required besides a primary document.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS.  THOMPSON  answered  that  both  a  primary  document  and  a                                                               
secondary document would be required,  but the secondary document                                                               
could be a driver's license.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
7:45:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  asked if  a  primary  document could  be  a                                                               
driver's license,  a passport,  or a  birth certificate,  and the                                                               
secondary document would be another one of those three.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON replied that is correct.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK asked if two documents would be needed.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  THOMPSON answered,  "It  depends on  your  situation."   She                                                               
suggested that a  person might bring in a foreign  passport and a                                                               
visa allowing  him/her to  be in  the U.S.   She said,  "Each ...                                                               
situation requires the different  documents depending on what the                                                               
person brings in."                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK asked whether any  two of the three documents                                                               
he mentioned would work, if  the applicant is an American citizen                                                               
and nothing else is required.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS.  THOMPSON maintained  that for  an applicant  applying for  a                                                               
brand-new driver's license, there  are other documents that would                                                               
verify residency  in Alaska.   She offered to give  the committee                                                               
the link to the website listing the other documents.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
7:47:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  referred to  another question  posed during                                                               
the 4/8/17  committee meeting:   Is there a list  of requirements                                                               
or an  authoritative U.S. Department of  Justice (DOJ) memorandum                                                               
("memo") from  DOJ stating what  constitutes compliance  and non-                                                               
compliance under  the federal REAL  ID Act?   He stated  that the                                                               
DHS  staff  he  contacted  declined  to  participate  during  the                                                               
hearing  on  HB 74.    He  offered  his understanding,  based  on                                                               
exchanged emails with DHS staff  and Mr. Magdanz's reading of the                                                               
REAL  ID  Act,  that  the  REAL  ID  compliance  of  a  state  is                                                               
adjudicated on a case-by-case basis.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ confirmed  that DHS staff indicated that  there is no                                                               
document   of  the   type  the   committee  had   requested;  the                                                               
authoritative document  [regarding REAL  ID compliance] is  the 6                                                               
Code  of Federal  Regulations (CFR)  Part 37,  which is  about 16                                                               
pages in length.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS reiterated  the  question being  addressed:                                                               
Is there  some kind of  authoritative document regarding  REAL ID                                                               
compliance that  clearly states the  requirements.  He  said that                                                               
for  the   answer  to  that   question,  one  must   consult  the                                                               
regulations, and DHS interprets  the regulations to determine the                                                               
compliance of a state.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  asked  if that  question  encapsulates  the                                                               
question on  the minimum  requirements for  a two-year  [REAL ID]                                                               
waiver.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS stated that the  question on the waiver is a                                                               
separate question but can be posed to DOA during the hearing.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
7:50:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK expressed  his understanding  that the  base                                                               
commander, not  DHS or DoD,  determines what IDs are  required to                                                               
access base.   He  asked what  forms of ID  are accepted  on base                                                               
currently.  He relayed that four  IDs were mentioned in the Joint                                                               
Armed Services  Committee meeting [3/23/17].   He stated  that he                                                               
assumed the  passport and  the DBIDS  card were  two of  them but                                                               
does not know the other two.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUFFY answered  that installations do not  determine on their                                                               
own which forms of ID are  sufficient or insufficient.  He stated                                                               
that installations comply  with elements of the REAL  ID Act; the                                                               
REAL ID Act has a list of a dozen or more forms of ID:                                                                          
passports,   passport    cards,   immigrations    status   cards,                                                               
transportation  worker ID  cards, and  others.   He relayed  that                                                               
currently the IDs on the list  are acceptable, and other forms of                                                               
ID from  states with an  approved [REAL ID  compliance] extension                                                               
are  acceptable  through June  6,  including  the current  Alaska                                                               
driver's license.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK expressed  his  understanding  that a  DBIDS                                                               
card  constitutes  a one-year  pass  and  card holders  would  be                                                               
required to  renew, if HB 74  passes.  He asked  whether a person                                                               
could  use  an old  DBIDS  card  as  documentation to  renew  for                                                               
another year, if HB 74 does not pass.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DUFFY  offered a  scenario  as  explanation:   An  Anchorage                                                               
School  District  (ASD) employee  working  at  a school  on  base                                                               
received a DBIDS card in  September 2016 using his current Alaska                                                               
driver's license as a form of  ID, which is sufficient for a one-                                                               
year  pass.   The  DBIDS card  will continue  to  be valid  until                                                               
September 2017, at which  time he would need to renew  it.  If HB
74 passes, the  June 6 expiration date will be  extended to allow                                                               
the state  to implement REAL  ID.  If no  action is taken  on the                                                               
bill by  June 6, the employee  would not be allowed  to renew the                                                               
DBIDS card  with his  current Alaska  driver's license  but would                                                               
need another form  of ID - a passport, a  passport card, or other                                                               
REAL ID compliant ID.   He would not be able to  use an old DBIDS                                                               
card as an ID to get a new DBIDS card.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
7:54:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX moved  to adopt  the committee  substitute                                                               
(CS)  for HB  74, labeled  30-GH1781\U, Martin,  4/10/17, as  the                                                               
working  document.   There  being  no  objection, Version  U  was                                                               
before the committee as a work draft.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS referred  to  the proposed  Amendment 4  to                                                               
Version U, which read:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 6, following "fee.":                                                                                          
          Insert "An identification card may be renewed by                                                                      
     mail or  on the  department's Internet  website, except                                                                    
     that an identification card may  not be renewed by mail                                                                    
     or  on the  department's Internet  website if  the most                                                                    
     recent renewal  of the applicant's  identification card                                                                    
     was by mail or on the department's Internet website."                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 27:                                                                                                           
          Delete "and 6 C.F.R. Part 37, as amended"                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Page 5, line 14:                                                                                                           
          Delete "served"                                                                                                       
          Insert "serve"                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS  said  that the  proposed  amendment  would                                                               
correct   a  typo   and  eliminate   the  reference   to  federal                                                               
regulations, as recommended by LLS.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ  confirmed that the  proposed amendment  would delete                                                               
the  reference to  federal regulations  on  page 3,  line 27  and                                                               
correct  the  typo on  page  5,  line 14.    He  stated that  the                                                               
language  proposed in  lines  1-5 of  Amendment  4 constitutes  a                                                               
technical conforming  change requested  by Legislative  Legal and                                                               
Research Services.   He explained that Version  J had erroneously                                                               
referred  to "identification  card"  in  the statutes  addressing                                                               
driver's licenses;  in Version U  the mention  of "identification                                                               
card"  was moved  from Title  28  to Title  18, but  some of  the                                                               
necessary accompanying  language was omitted.   Amendment 4 would                                                               
add  that  language  back  into  Version  U,  [page  3,  line  6,                                                               
following "fee".]                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
7:56:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX moved to adopt Amendment 4, [labeled 30-                                                                  
GH1781\U.4, Martin, 4/10/17].  There being no objection,                                                                        
Amendment 4 was adopted.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
7:57:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ referred to the proposed Amendment 1 [to Version U],                                                                
which read:                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 29, following "sharing.":                                                                                   
          Insert "(a)"                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, following line 6:                                                                                                  
     Insert new subsections to read:                                                                                            
          "(b)  The department shall take all steps                                                                             
     necessary to  obtain from the entity  an agreement that                                                                    
     the state  need not convey, distribute,  or communicate                                                                    
     social  security  numbers,  in  whole or  in  part,  to                                                                    
     participate in the database,  index, pointer system, or                                                                    
     other system.                                                                                                              
          (c)  The department shall submit an annual report                                                                     
     on the  results of  the efforts  required under  (b) of                                                                    
     this section  to the senate  secretary and  chief clerk                                                                    
     of   the  house   of  representatives   on  or   before                                                                    
     January 31  of each  year  and  notify the  legislature                                                                    
     that the report is available."                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Page 8, following line 15:                                                                                                 
     Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                         
        "*  Sec. 14.  AS 28.05.068(c)  is repealed  June 30,                                                                  
     2021."                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 8, line 22:                                                                                                           
          Delete "Sections 13 and 14"                                                                                           
          Insert "Sections 14 and 15"                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Page 8, line 23:                                                                                                           
          Delete "sec. 15"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 16"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ stated that the  amendment was drafted in response to                                                               
concerns  about the  sharing of  Social  Security numbers  (SSNs)                                                               
with AAMVA.  He relayed that  subsection (b) would require DOA to                                                               
take all  steps necessary to  obtain from the  entity, referenced                                                               
in  Section 4,  an  agreement  that the  state  need not  convey,                                                               
distribute,  or  communicate  SSNs,  in  whole  or  in  part,  to                                                               
participate  in the  database, index,  pointer  system, or  other                                                               
system.    He  continued  by saying  that  subsection  (c)  would                                                               
require DOA  to provide  the legislature  an annual  report every                                                               
year until  2021 of its progress  toward meeting the goal  [of an                                                               
agreement].  By  2021, REAL ID would be fully  implemented; if by                                                               
2021  Alaska has  not been  successful in  convincing AAMVA  that                                                               
Alaska  does not  need to  share  SSNs, subsection  (c) would  be                                                               
repealed in order  that Alaska not continue to  submit the annual                                                               
reports.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK expressed his  understanding that DOA already                                                               
shared Alaska  SSNs in January  2017.   He stated that  he didn't                                                               
understand  how the  system  works -  if  there is  or  is not  a                                                               
database.    He  offered  his  understanding  that  there  is  an                                                               
exchange  of  information  between  states.    He  said  that  he                                                               
appreciates the  proposed amendment  because the  Social Security                                                               
Administration (SSA)  has recommended that  SSNs not be  used for                                                               
this purpose.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH  asked if Amendment  1 has been  reviewed by                                                               
DOA, meets  with its  approval, and does  not interfere  with the                                                               
intent of the proposed legislation.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:00:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANKER expressed  his concern that language  in the proposed                                                               
amendment  could create  unintended consequences  in the  future.                                                               
He said his  understanding is that the intent of  the language is                                                               
to  direct DMV  to use  its best  efforts to  try and  change its                                                               
reporting of  SSNs; however, if unsuccessful  at effectuating the                                                               
change, then the  reporting would still occur.   He maintained if                                                               
that is  the intent, there may  be no reason for  concern; if not                                                               
the intent, there may be future consequences.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:02:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KNOPP  questioned why  Alaska would be  willing to                                                               
provide SSNs, considering it is not  a mandate of the REAL ID Act                                                               
but of AAMVA.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANKER  replied that  the  REAL  ID Act  specifies  certain                                                               
minimum information,  such as name and  address.  He said  that 6                                                               
CFR  37.33  is the  [federal]  regulation  that requires  DMV  to                                                               
maintain the state database, and  the state database requires the                                                               
SSN.    He maintained  that  prior  to  REAL  ID, DMV  was  still                                                               
required  to  retain   the  SSN.    The   Federal  Child  Support                                                               
[Enforcement]  Program  (FCSEP),  in which  Alaska  participates,                                                               
requires the reporting  of the SSN to obtain  a driver's license,                                                               
if  the individual  has  an SSN.   He  reiterated  that SSNs  are                                                               
required  for   the  DMV  database  regardless   of  the  state's                                                               
compliance with REAL ID.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  suggested that the reason  SSNs are included                                                               
in the  DMV database is  to enable  FCSEP to track  employment to                                                               
garnish wages.  He asked if DMV "holds" the database for FCSEP.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANKER  replied yes,  currently DMV  is required  to capture                                                               
the SSN  of an  applicant for  a driver's  license and  make that                                                               
information  available   to  FCSEP.    He   maintained  that  the                                                               
requirement to report  SSNs is not limited  to driver's licenses,                                                               
but many  professional licenses require  SSNs through  those same                                                               
FCSEP laws, such as a license to practice law.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK expressed his  concern that Alaska must allow                                                               
other states access  to information in DMV's database.   He asked                                                               
what other data  other states can access and if  Alaska can build                                                               
a "firewall" allowing access to only  certain data.  He asked for                                                               
the  Alaska statute  that requires  DMV to  hold information  for                                                               
FCSEP, and "what  statutes it is for the ...  Social Security and                                                               
occupational licenses for child support?"                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANKER replied that he would provide that information.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:06:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  moved to  adopt Amendment 1,  [labeled 30-                                                               
GH1781\U.1,  Martin,   4/10/17].    There  being   no  objection,                                                               
Amendment 1 was adopted.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:07:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ referred to the  proposed Amendment 2 [to Version U],                                                               
which read:                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 29, following "sharing.":                                                                                   
          Insert "(a)"                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, following line 6:                                                                                                  
          Insert new subsections to read:                                                                                       
          "(b)  The department shall take all steps                                                                             
     available to work with other states, the United States                                                                     
      Department of Homeland Security, and any multistate                                                                       
     entities in  which the state  participates to  secure a                                                                    
     means of compliance with P.L.  109-13, Division B (REAL                                                                    
     ID  Act  of  2005),  including  through  an  interstate                                                                    
     compact, that  does not involve the  storage or sharing                                                                    
     of social security  numbers, in whole or  in part, with                                                                    
     an  interstate  database,  index,  pointer  system,  or                                                                    
     other system.                                                                                                              
          (c) The department shall submit an annual report                                                                      
     on the  results of  the efforts  required under  (b) of                                                                    
     this section  to the senate  secretary and  chief clerk                                                                    
     of the  house of representatives by  January 31 of each                                                                    
     year  and notify  the legislature  that  the report  is                                                                    
     available."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Page 8, following line 15:                                                                                                 
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
        "*  Sec. 14.  AS 28.05.068(c)  is repealed  June 30,                                                                
     2021."                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 8, line 22:                                                                                                           
          Delete "Sections 13 and 14"                                                                                           
          Insert "Sections 14 and 15"                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Page 8, line 23:                                                                                                           
          Delete "sec. 15"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 16"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MAGDANZ  relayed  that Amendment  2  would  address  similar                                                               
issues as  Amendment 1.  The  difference between the two  is that                                                               
Amendment 1 contemplates  the interstate system -  State to State                                                               
(S2S) -  currently being  piloted by  AAMVA, whereas  Amendment 2                                                               
addresses a larger  system and requests DOA to take  all steps to                                                               
work  with other  states,  DHS, and  any  multistate entities  in                                                               
which  the state  participates to  secure a  means of  compliance                                                               
with  the REAL  ID  Act  that does  not  involve  the storage  or                                                               
sharing  of  SSNs with  an  interstate  database, index,  pointer                                                               
system, or other system.  He  maintained that the Amendment 2 has                                                               
the  same  reporting  requirement  and the  same  repeal  of  the                                                               
reporting requirement as does Amendment 1.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:08:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK asked  if the  annual report,  referenced in                                                               
Amendment  1  and the  proposed  Amendment  2, would  be  audited                                                               
annually.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS   responded  that   the  report   would  be                                                               
delivered  to  the  legislature and  would  be  like  statutorily                                                               
mandated progress reports from other agencies.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:09:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  asked, "What  does this  do to  the fiscal                                                               
note?"                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS asked  for comments from DOA and  DOL on the                                                               
proposed Amendment 2.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANKER  stated  that  the  proposed  Amendment  2  is  like                                                               
Amendment 1 in purpose; therefore,  his previous comment applies.                                                               
If the intent  is for DMV to  use its best efforts  to change the                                                               
requirement for  reporting SSNs but  failing to do so  results in                                                               
no  subsequent consequence  for  REAL ID  compliance, then  there                                                               
would be  no reason for concern;  but if the intent  is to hamper                                                               
REAL ID  compliance, then DMV  failing to change the  SSN sharing                                                               
requirement would result in the amendment being problematic.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:10:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
LESLIE RIDLE,  Deputy Commissioner, Department  of Administration                                                               
(DOA),  asked for  confirmation  that the  committee would  adopt                                                               
either Amendment 1 or Amendment 2, but not both.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS replied no, it's both.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE maintained  that both amendments are to  the same lines                                                               
of Version U.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ  stated that Legislative Legal  and Research Services                                                               
relayed  that both  amendments could  be adopted,  and the  chair                                                               
could make  a statement directing Legislative  Legal and Research                                                               
Services to  make technical and  conforming changes to  the final                                                               
version of the CS.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS confirmed  that is what he would  do, if the                                                               
committee decides to adopt both amendments.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH  asked, "How does  that work?"  He  asked if                                                               
on page 4, line 6, there  will be two subsections labeled (b) and                                                               
two  subsections labeled  (c).   He asserted  that two  identical                                                               
paragraph descriptors would not make sense.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ answered that if  both amendments are adopted, asking                                                               
for "conforming technical changes"  would allow Legislative Legal                                                               
and Research  Services to rename the  subsections; the additional                                                               
subsection would become subsection (d) in the final version.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:12:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KNOPP stated  that if the proposed  Amendment 2 is                                                               
moved  for  adoption,  he  will   object.    He  maintained  that                                                               
Amendment 1 is  sufficient, and legislators do not  need any more                                                               
annual reports for "the recycle bin."   He asserted that DOA does                                                               
not need this report and it would not benefit legislators.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:13:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL asked  if the  major difference  between the                                                               
two amendments is that Amendment  1 addresses entities like AAMVA                                                               
and Amendment 2 addresses entities  like DHS.  He maintained that                                                               
AAMVA is  the entity to  which Alaska  would prefer not  to share                                                               
SSNs.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS  relayed  that Amendment  1  addresses  the                                                               
possibility  of  Alaska  leveraging  its position  on  the  AAMVA                                                               
governance  board to  reform  the  S2S system  so  that it  would                                                               
change its  requirement for the last  five digits of the  SSN. He                                                               
said that  Amendment 2 addresses  the fact  that S2S is  the only                                                               
system that complies with the REAL  ID Act.  Amendment 2 suggests                                                               
that  Alaska  join  with  other states  to  express  interest  in                                                               
another  system were  it  to  exist.   If  the  number of  states                                                               
expressing that interest reaches a  critical mass, then all those                                                               
states together could advocate for  another system requiring less                                                               
private data or information.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:15:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON asked for  the perspective of the Identity                                                               
Project on  this issue, other  ideas on an alternate  system, and                                                               
how states might form a compact on this issue.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:16:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
EDWARD HASBROUCK,  Identity Project, relayed that  AAMVA, the S2S                                                               
system, and the State Pointer  Exchange Services (SPEXS) database                                                               
have been kept  largely and deliberately out of the  debate as it                                                               
has  occurred  in  state  legislatures.     He  stated  that  DHS                                                               
continues to say  very publicly and prominently that  the REAL ID                                                               
Act is not creating a  national database; yet, he maintained that                                                               
it is  - in  the form of  the SPEXS database.   He  asserted that                                                               
when DHS  denies that  there is a  national database,  it becomes                                                               
difficult for legislators  to scrutinize the nature  of the SPEXS                                                               
database.    He  relayed  that  to  the  extent  there  has  been                                                               
discussions within  other state  legislatures, his sense  is that                                                               
there  is  much skepticism  and  justifiable  concern about  what                                                               
control the  state will continue  to exercise over the  data once                                                               
it  is  in the  hands  of  a private  third  party;  there is  no                                                               
guarantee that Alaska  would even be aware of  the FBI requesting                                                               
the data.   He  asserted that  there is  concern in  other states                                                               
regarding the loss of control that this scenario entails.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. HASBROUCK,  in response to  the question about  other options                                                               
for a database  system, reminded the committee  of how difficult,                                                               
costly, and slow  the process [of creating the  S2S database] has                                                               
been.   When the  REAL ID  Act was  enacted, the  expectation was                                                               
that the  system would  be implemented  in all  states by  2008 -                                                               
within three  years.  He  stated that it  took ten years  - until                                                               
2015 - before the first state  and the pilot program for S2S came                                                               
online.    Even  now  only  about 15  percent  of  the  country's                                                               
residents are in the database, and  it will be several more years                                                               
until the  rest of the  residents are  online.  He  asserted that                                                               
the  database system  has  already taken  ten  years longer  than                                                               
initially   anticipated;   anyone   attempting   to   create   an                                                               
alternative system would need to commit  a great deal of money to                                                               
the effort  and it would  take a long  time.  He  maintained that                                                               
setting up a national database system is a major undertaking.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. HASBROUCK declared  that if Alaska does not  like the current                                                               
database  system,  the  realistic  pathway is  not  to  agree  to                                                               
comply; there is no realistic  expectation that either AAMVA will                                                               
change, given the  time and expense already invested,  or a third                                                               
party would  be able to invest  the amount of money  that DHS has                                                               
invested in the system.  He  maintained that the total budget for                                                               
the project  is not  readily known because  the funding  has been                                                               
fragmented  into  block grants  to  states,  then reassembled  by                                                               
AAMVA  and  paid  to  Clerus   Solutions  -  the  revolving  door                                                               
contractor founded  by former AAMVA  executives - to  operate the                                                               
system.   He reiterated that  the Identity Project does  not know                                                               
the total  budget, but the funds  are from DHS money  and DHS has                                                               
no reason  or desire to fund  an alternate system giving  it less                                                               
access to the data.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:20:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  declared that  he supports Amendment  2, and                                                               
the  report required  by  the  amendment could  be  added to  the                                                               
report  required  under  Amendment  1.   He  reiterated  that  if                                                               
Amendment 2  is adopted, the  subsections would  be "re-lettered"                                                               
accordingly.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS concurred.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK moved  to adopt  Amendment  2, [labeled  30-                                                               
GH1781\U.2, Martin, 4/10/17].                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:21:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX objected  for the  purpose of  discussion.                                                               
She  asked to  know  when  legislators would  be  advised of  the                                                               
additional fiscal  cost under Amendment  1 and Amendment 2.   She                                                               
asked if  there will be a  revised fiscal note with  the proposed                                                               
legislation for the next committee of referral.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RIDLE  opined   that  there  would  not  be   much  cost  to                                                               
implementing  the amendments;  the  DOA would  be  asked to  make                                                               
efforts to  change the data  system [requirements] and  prepare a                                                               
report  to the  legislature.    She mentioned  that  she did  not                                                               
expect the  report to expend  many resources, but  she maintained                                                               
that  if the  committee moves  Version  U, with  Amendment 1  and                                                               
Amendment 2,  out of  committee, DOA would  include a  new fiscal                                                               
note for the House Finance Standing Committee, if necessary.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:23:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KNOPP asked  if  Amendment 2  would constitute  a                                                               
one-time effort or  a continuing effort to create  a compact with                                                               
other states.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE  answered that she  views the effort under  Amendment 2                                                               
to  be a  continuing effort  and would  involve working  with the                                                               
AAMVA governance board to change the system.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KNOPP  suggested that  the AAMVA  governance board                                                               
is not  the entity with which  to work for changing  or replacing                                                               
the database system through a compact with other states.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:24:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL referred to the  scenario in which two people                                                               
had the  same name  and date  of birth; the  last five  digits of                                                               
their SSNs  would differentiate  the two people.   He  asked what                                                               
could be used if not the SSN for that verification.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RIDLE  offered  that  the  verification  would  most  likely                                                               
involve a  review of other  identifying data over the  phone with                                                               
another state, and it would most likely slow the process.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL  suggested that other identifying  data could                                                               
include  city   of  birth,  mother's   maiden  name,   and  other                                                               
identifying  factors which  could be  verified without  access to                                                               
the other state's database.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RIDLE replied  yes,  they  would be  factors  that could  be                                                               
discussed in a phone call.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:26:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX removed  her  objection to  the motion  to                                                               
adopt Amendment 2.   There being no further objection,  it was so                                                               
ordered.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:26:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ referred to the  proposed Amendment 3 [to Version U],                                                               
which read:                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 1, following "not":                                                                                           
          Insert ", without the consent of the applicant,"                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 18, following "not":                                                                                          
          Insert ", without the consent of the applicant,"                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. MAGDANZ relayed  that Amendment 3 was drafted  in response to                                                               
concerns from  DOA and possibly  the Department of  Public Safety                                                               
(DPS).     He  explained  that   Version  U  requires   that  for                                                               
noncompliant ID  cards and driver's  licenses, DOA may  not copy,                                                               
scan,  or   retain  in  any   form  a  document  other   than  an                                                               
application.   He  relayed that  under  Version U,  if an  Alaska                                                               
resident  visited his/her  DMV and  requested  a noncompliant  ID                                                               
card  or  driver's license,  DMV  would  verify his/her  identity                                                               
using the documents offered but  would not be permitted to retain                                                               
the  documents  in  any  form.   He  stated  that  DOA  personnel                                                               
indicated that  it does  retain copies  of source  documents, and                                                               
Alaskans  find   that  practice  valuable  in   the  event  their                                                               
documents are destroyed or lost.   He maintained that Amendment 3                                                               
would  allow  DMV  to  continue  storing  source  documents  upon                                                               
consent of the applicant.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
8:28:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DAN LOWDEN,  Captain, Deputy Commander, Division  of Alaska State                                                               
Troopers (AST),  Department of Public  Safety (DPS),  opined that                                                               
Amendment 3 would  not offer DPS sufficient  ability to reconcile                                                               
records or verify  identity if consent is  required [for document                                                               
retention]; some records  would be retained, and  some would not.                                                               
He maintained that the Criminal  Records and Identification (R&I)                                                               
Bureau  [DPS] often  must merge  records when  a person  has more                                                               
than one record  or differentiate similar records.   He said that                                                               
if DPS has partial records, it  would not be able to achieve that                                                               
goal.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:30:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL referred to  the scenarios of someone's house                                                               
burning down  or someone losing  his/her license.   He maintained                                                               
that when  he lost his  license, it was  easy to get  a duplicate                                                               
from DMV.   He  asked if  in the case  of someone  losing his/her                                                               
license  who   had  not  consented  to   have  his/her  documents                                                               
retained, DMV  would have  retained a record  of the  license but                                                               
not the affiliated documents.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE replied  correct and explained that DMV  would not have                                                               
the records  on hand to  issue a  duplicate license.   The person                                                               
would have to  reapply for a driver's license and  again bring in                                                               
the documents for identification.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL  relayed that he  lost his license  years ago                                                               
and was  able to  obtain a  new license.   He  asked if  that was                                                               
possible because DMV stored his  supporting documents, because he                                                               
submitted documentation  to DMV for  the new license,  or because                                                               
it happened so long ago.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE  replied that  it was possible  because DMV  stored his                                                               
documents:    personnel were  able  to  look up  his  identifying                                                               
records,  possibly  ask  him  some questions,  and  look  at  his                                                               
picture on record.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL  summarized  that   under  Amendment  3,  if                                                               
someone not  consenting to  the retention  of his/her  records at                                                               
DMV  loses  his/her  license,  he/she   must  submit  the  source                                                               
documents  for a  duplicate  driver's license.    If that  person                                                               
loses  all his/her  documents, such  as in  a fire,  he/she could                                                               
have a real problem replacing the driver's license.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE said, "You're correct."   She added that DMV also could                                                               
not offer online renewal.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
8:33:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX asked  if birth  certificates have  always                                                               
been required.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS.  THOMPSON  responded  that   DMV  has  always  checked  birth                                                               
certificates but just recently has  been taking copies due to the                                                               
existence  of  scanners.   She  maintained  that people  are  not                                                               
always truthful  about their intentions;  they may  be attempting                                                               
to steal someone's identity; and the  DMV's goal is to retain the                                                               
information to make it as easy as possible for the customers.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX  maintained  that  she  got  her  driver's                                                               
license when  she moved to  Alaska in 1978  or 1979; she  did not                                                               
believe she  had a birth certificate  at the time but  showed her                                                               
driver's license  from another  state to obtain  a license.   She                                                               
asked if  she would  have needed a  birth certificate  to replace                                                               
her driver's license.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON explained that it  would depend on the situation and                                                               
the documents that a person offered.   She conceded that DMV does                                                               
not  have  copies  of  birth certificates  yet  for  many  people                                                               
because it  didn't have  the ability  to make  copies; therefore,                                                               
people applying for  REAL IDs would need to bring  in their birth                                                               
certificates.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked  if currently a person  would be able                                                               
to get  a duplicate  license from  DMV, if DMV  did not  have the                                                               
person's birth certificate and he/she lost his/her license.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  THOMPSON agreed  that currently  the person  could do  that,                                                               
because Alaska is not compliant.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX mentioned that  she understood Ms. Thompson                                                               
to tell Representative Wool that a  person would need to bring in                                                               
his/her birth  certificate to obtain  a duplicate record,  if the                                                               
birth  certificate  was  not  on file;  she  suggested  that  Ms.                                                               
Thompson may  have been  referring to what  would be  required if                                                               
Alaska were compliant with REAL ID.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON reiterated that it  depended on the situation; there                                                               
may  be a  birth certificate  on  file for  someone who  obtained                                                               
his/her license in the past ten  years.  She said that currently,                                                               
while Alaska  is still noncompliant,  DMV would ask for  other ID                                                               
and many questions to validate identity.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:36:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK referred  to  the scenario  of losing  one's                                                               
documents  in  a house  fire  and  asked  if  DMV could  issue  a                                                               
duplicate ID using only an image.   He asked how duplicate IDs or                                                               
driver's  licenses  are  currently  issued for  someone  with  no                                                               
supporting documents.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON answered  that it would depend on  the documents the                                                               
person  offered originally.   Regarding  the  family whose  house                                                               
just  recently  burned,  if  they  had  obtained  their  driver's                                                               
licenses from  Alaska DMV  and had submitted  ID to  obtain them,                                                               
DMV personnel  would be able to  view their pictures on  file and                                                               
validate the other information according to what is on file.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  asked whether a  person could get a  copy of                                                               
his/her  birth certificate  from DMV  after his/her  identity has                                                               
been verified.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON opined  that the DMV most likely would  not do that,                                                               
and the birth certificate would be a copy and not be certified.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
8:38:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  inquired whether retaining  documents from                                                               
some  applicants but  not others  would create  an administrative                                                               
"nightmare" for DMV.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE responded yes.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:39:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL moved  to adopt  Amendment  3, [labeled  30-                                                               
GH1781\U.3, Martin, 4/10/17].                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX objected.   She reiterated that Amendment 3                                                               
would cause  an administrative nightmare  for DMV.   She asserted                                                               
that it  is not DOA's  obligation to retain copies  of documents.                                                               
If a person is worried about  losing his/her documents in a fire,                                                               
he/she should store them in a bank vault.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL  clarified  that  without  the  adoption  of                                                               
Amendment 3, anyone  who obtains a noncompliant ID  will not have                                                               
his/her records retained  by DMV; anyone who  obtains a compliant                                                               
ID will  have his/her  records stored; and  it is  that disparity                                                               
and duality which would be troublesome.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE  answered that the  difficulty arises any time  DOA has                                                               
procedures  that  are not  uniform,  and  personnel must  explain                                                               
different options.  She maintained  that explaining compliant and                                                               
noncompliant  IDs  will  be  easy  because  of  all  the  written                                                               
materials that will  be provided; however, adding  a third option                                                               
- the retention of documents - increases the complication.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  asserted that  the American  Civil Liberties                                                               
Union (ACLU) of  Alaska supported the original version  of HB 74,                                                               
because  people who  want noncompliant  driver's licenses  do not                                                               
want their data  to be exchanged in  any way.  He  stated that he                                                               
did not support Amendment 3.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
A roll call vote was  taken.  Representatives Johnson, Knopp, and                                                               
Kreiss-Tomkins voted  in favor of  Amendment 3.   Representatives                                                               
Tuck,  Wool, LeDoux,  and  Birch voted  against  it.   Therefore,                                                               
Amendment 3 failed by a vote of 3-4.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:43:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX moved  to  adopt  Conceptual Amendment  1.                                                               
She referred to  page 6, lines 14-15, of Version  U and explained                                                               
that Conceptual  Amendment 1  would delete "may"  on line  14 and                                                               
insert  "shall" and  delete  "one  year" on  line  15 and  insert                                                               
"eight years".                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS objected for the purpose of discussion.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MAGDANZ  recommended that  a  conceptual  amendment also  be                                                               
introduced to  amend the language  on page 3, lines  10-11, which                                                               
addresses  identification cards  and  mirrors  the language  that                                                               
would be amended by Conceptual Amendment 1.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANKER  prefaced his  remarks by  saying that  he is  not an                                                               
immigration  attorney  and  immigration  law  is  a  complex  and                                                               
technical  body  of  law.    He  stated  that  there  are  a  few                                                               
"indefinite"  immigration  statuses:     a  student  visa  is  an                                                               
indefinite  status;  people  seeking asylum  have  an  indefinite                                                               
status;  and permanent  residents obtaining  green cards  at some                                                               
point in the 1980s and before,  whose green cards did not expire.                                                               
He pointed  out that by  requiring DMV  to issue all  people with                                                               
indefinite  status an  eight-year license,  it may  issue one  to                                                               
someone requesting  asylum whose request  is rejected in  60 days                                                               
and then must leave the country.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked  how a DMV employee would  be able to                                                               
determine whether an immigration  status is indefinite forever or                                                               
indefinite for 60 days.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANKER  replied  that  in  reviewing  AS  28.15.101(d),  he                                                               
discovered that  during the  hearing on House  Bill 1  during the                                                               
Twenty-Eighth  Alaska  State  Legislature, 2013-1014,  there  was                                                               
significant committee discussion on  that very point.  Ultimately                                                               
the language  was written such  that DMV would  issue regulations                                                               
to  provide additional  specificity; however,  it was  determined                                                               
that  for  most  immigration  documents, DMV  would  be  able  to                                                               
determine  the duration  of the  stay.   He stated  House Bill  1                                                               
provided for  the license to be  issued for one year  for someone                                                               
with   an  indefinite   stay.     He  recommended   incorporating                                                               
flexibility in the sentence on  page 6, lines 14-15, allowing DMV                                                               
to  issue a  license  for up  to eight  years,  which may  better                                                               
accomplish the intent of the amendment.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX withdrew Conceptual Amendment 1.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
8:48:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX moved  to  adopt  Conceptual Amendment  2.                                                               
She explained that  Conceptual Amendment 2 would  delete "may" on                                                               
page 6,  line 14,  of Version  U, and  insert "shall"  and delete                                                               
"one year" on page 6, line 15, and insert "up to eight years".                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH  offered that he believes  that the proposed                                                               
amendment addresses  his concern  and would give  DOA flexibility                                                               
to  use its  discretion  in making  determinations regarding  the                                                               
issuance of driver's licenses.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS objected for the  purpose of discussion.  He                                                               
stated that he agreed with Representative Birch's assessment.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  suggested that page  3, line 11,  be amended                                                               
as well.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL  asked what the  duration of a  license would                                                               
be for someone with a student visa.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANKER  offered that a student  visa is in effect  while the                                                               
holder is a student.  A  school has an immigration liaison office                                                               
to ensure that  the proper documentation is  submitted to federal                                                               
authorities for the individual to  remain in lawful status in the                                                               
U.S.  He  expressed his belief that the language  in the proposed                                                               
amendment would give  DMV the flexibility to issue  a license for                                                               
up  to  eight years;  and  DMV  regulations can  provide  further                                                               
guidance explaining  the appropriate duration of  the license for                                                               
each of the immigration status categories.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   KREISS-TOMKINS  removed   his  objection   to  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment  2.    There  being no  further  objection,  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 2 was adopted.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:52:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX moved  to  adopt  Conceptual Amendment  3.                                                               
She  explained  that Conceptual  Amendment  3  would delete  "may                                                               
issue the identification card with  a validity of one year", page                                                               
3,  line  11,   of  Version  U,  and  insert   "shall  issue  the                                                               
identification card with a validity of up to eight years".                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS objected for the purpose of discussion.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  mentioned that  under Version U,  Section 3,                                                               
subsection  (o)  would be  a  new  subsection; he  asked  whether                                                               
currently immigrants are able to get ID cards.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MAGDANZ replied  that the  state was  issuing ID  cards with                                                               
shorter  terms,  and  the proposed  legislation  would  create  a                                                               
"cleaner" process.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANKER  responded that  under  AS  18.65.310, there  is  no                                                               
expiration  date  provided for  ID  cards;  however, the  statute                                                               
states that ID cards shall  be like driver's licenses but without                                                               
driving  privileges.   He mentioned  that in  Title 28,  driver's                                                               
licenses and  ID cards  are used  interchangeably.   He explained                                                               
that  a previous  draft of  AS 28.15.101(d)  had been  amended to                                                               
read "driver's  license or  identification card";  however, after                                                               
discussion with  Legislative Legal and Research  Services, it was                                                               
decided to take  the language from AS  28.15.101(d) regarding the                                                               
duration for driver's  licenses and insert it  into AS 18.65.310,                                                               
applying only to ID cards.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  offered that  the language  in Section  3 of                                                               
Version  U  aligns  statutes regarding  ID  cards  with  statutes                                                               
regarding  driver's licenses.   He  suggested that  in the  past,                                                               
because  ID cards  were issued  like driver's  licenses, driver's                                                               
license statutes were applied to the issuance of ID cards.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANKER responded  that  ID  cards are  issued  by DMV,  and                                                               
Version U does "clean it up."                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   KREISS-TOMKINS  removed   his  objection   to  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 3.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:56:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK objected  for the purpose of  discussion.  He                                                               
asked if the  requirements for issuing ID cards  under [Title] 18                                                               
includes DMV and any other state issued card.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANKER answered  that Title 18, Chapter  65, addresses state                                                               
ID cards  and specifies that  DOA will administer them;  the DMV,                                                               
which is within DOA, performs the work [of ID card issuance].                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK asked  if there  are state  ID cards  issued                                                               
outside of DMV.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANKER  replied that  he is  aware only  of ID  cards issued                                                               
under AS  18.65 by DMV;  he stated he is  not aware of  any other                                                               
cards  the state  issues or  whether employee  cards or  prisoner                                                               
cards constitute ID cards.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  stated that  his question  addresses whether                                                               
the addition  of Section 3,  subsection (o) would require  all ID                                                               
cards issued by the state be REAL ID compliant.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANKER answered  no.  What is being  discussed under Version                                                               
U are  only the ID cards  issued under AS 18.65;  any other cards                                                               
issued by the state are not issued under that Title and Chapter.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  asked if  the  legislative  IDs fall  under                                                               
[Title] 18.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANKER replied that he  is not familiar with the legislative                                                               
ID, but the IDs issued under AS 18.65, are issued by DMV.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   TUCK  removed   his   objection  to   Conceptual                                                               
Amendment  3.    There  being no  further  objection,  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 3 was adopted.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
9:00:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HASBROUCK  testified in response  to a question  posed during                                                               
the 4/8/17  committee meeting, which  was whether a person  is or                                                               
will be  required to show  ID for  airplane travel.   He asserted                                                               
that  it is  the  threat of  not  being allowed  to  fly that  is                                                               
driving  the  potential adoption  of  HB  74.   He  relayed  that                                                               
currently there is no federal  law or regulation that requires an                                                               
ID for  airplane travel; he added  that DHS has not  been able to                                                               
identify such  a law or regulation.   He stated that  the REAL ID                                                               
Act sets standards for the types  of ID that are acceptable if an                                                               
ID  is  required, but  it  does  not  itself  require an  ID  for                                                               
anything.  He  stated that the requirement for an  ID to access a                                                               
military base is up to DoD, and  the requirement for an ID to fly                                                               
is the prerogative of  the Transportation Security Administration                                                               
(TSA).  He maintained that TSA has  not been able to point to any                                                               
such regulation.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HASBROUCK  relayed  that  the   clearest  statement  of  the                                                               
requirement for an  ID to travel by airplane was  the decision of                                                               
the  U.S.  Court  of  Appeals   for  the  Ninth  Circuit  ("Ninth                                                               
Circuit") in Gilmore  v. Gonzales - a case brought  forth by John                                                             
Gilmore, who  founded the  Identity Project.   He stated  that in                                                               
that  case, the  Ninth Circuit  judges  were able  to review  "in                                                               
camera"   the  "secret"   security  directives   instructing  TSA                                                               
operatives.    After reviewing  those  documents  in camera,  the                                                               
Ninth Circuit  concluded and  publicly ruled  that the  ID policy                                                               
then  in effect  -  which was  after  the REAL  ID  Act had  been                                                               
adopted - allowed people  either to show an ID or  to submit to a                                                               
more intrusive search before getting on an airplane.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. HASBROUCK maintained that no  legislation has been introduced                                                               
since [the  Ninth Circuit]  ruling to change  this; no  notice of                                                               
proposed  rule-making  has been  promulgated  by  DHS or  TSA  to                                                               
change  this.   He  declared  that  any statement  about  whether                                                               
people  would be  prevented from  getting on  airplanes would  be                                                               
speculation:     speculation  about  some  as   yet  unintroduced                                                               
legislation that Congress is not  even talking about; speculation                                                               
about some future  regulations that have not  even been proposed;                                                               
or speculation about what would  be a completely arbitrary act by                                                               
DHS - an act clearly vulnerable  to legal challenge - not only to                                                               
deny people  the right  to travel but  to arbitrarily  single out                                                               
citizens  of  some  states,  such as  Alaska,  in  preference  to                                                               
citizens  of  other states  by  interfering  with the  right  [of                                                               
Alaskans] to travel.   He maintained that would  be vulnerable to                                                               
a  host  of  justifiable  legal challenges  on  equal  protection                                                               
grounds  that Alaskans  are entitled  to the  same rights  as the                                                               
residents of any other state.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:04:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  mentioned  the  Privacy  Impact  Assessment                                                               
(PIA) performed  on the  SPEXS program, which  was posted  on the                                                               
Identity Project website.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS   asked  for  committee  comments   on  the                                                               
proposed legislation.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK opined  that Version  U is  not ready  to be                                                               
moved out of committee.  He  questioned whether all the issues in                                                               
the 4/5/17  letter from  DOA, included  in the  committee packet,                                                               
were addressed.   He stated that committee members  were not able                                                               
to  ask  their  questions   regarding  the  valuable  information                                                               
presented by  Mr. Hasbrouck.   He maintained that there  are more                                                               
questions that have  not been answered.  He  expressed his belief                                                               
that the process is not  good, and the proposed legislation needs                                                               
more time.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH opined that  the proposed legislation is not                                                               
perfect, but  there has  been ample  testimony and  discussion on                                                               
the "pluses" and  "minuses" of REAL ID.  He  expressed his belief                                                               
that  the committee  made a  good  faith effort  in drafting  the                                                               
proposed  legislation;  the  administration advanced  a  proposal                                                               
allowing  residents  the  option  of either  a  compliant  ID  or                                                               
noncompliant ID; and the legislature  has asked the Congressional                                                               
delegation for  an exemption for  several years with  no success.                                                               
He stated  that he is  encouraged by  the dialogue and  energy of                                                               
the committee  and his  desire is  that the  proposed legislation                                                               
move out of committee.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:10:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KNOPP  opined that the proposed  legislation still                                                               
has issues even  after a great deal of debate.   He expressed his                                                               
disappointment in  not being given  the opportunity to  offer his                                                               
amendment and  to ask  all the  questions he needed  to ask.   He                                                               
opined that more time was  needed for additional conversation and                                                               
needed fixes.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON said  that she  agrees with  the concerns                                                               
expressed by  the other committee  members.  She opined  that the                                                               
concerns  were  not  "belaboring  an issue"  but  are  legitimate                                                               
concerns.  She maintained that  the proposed legislation involves                                                               
Alaska's  participation in  a  new, big  database  - bigger  than                                                               
anything  seen  in  the  history  of the  U.S.;  all  states  are                                                               
contributing  to it;  and she  is uncomfortable  with her  facial                                                               
image  and SSN  shipped out  to  an out-of-state  location.   She                                                               
claimed  that the  database is  a  national database  and is  the                                                               
"golden egg"  that any hacker  would want to access  to penetrate                                                               
the  security  of   the  U.S.  and  banking   information.    She                                                               
maintained that  hackers would be concentrating  their efforts on                                                               
this database.   She asserted that she would  like some assurance                                                               
that the  data is secure,  and she  claimed she has  not received                                                               
that.   She lamented that  not taking  the extra time  to address                                                               
the questions is  disappointing.  She opined that  the debate and                                                               
information are  being limited.   She stated  that she  will vote                                                               
"no" for many reasons, but  particularly because she believes the                                                               
process was not properly followed.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:13:38 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL  stated  that  there  are  issues  with  the                                                               
proposed legislation:   some that  could be addressed,  some that                                                               
could never  be addressed, and  some that  constitute fundamental                                                               
problems for some committee members  regardless of changes to the                                                               
proposed legislation.   He  expressed his  belief that  the chair                                                               
did  entertain   opposing  views   and  invited   testimony  from                                                               
different organizations,  including not  only state  agencies but                                                               
other  groups with  very opinionated  positions.   He  maintained                                                               
that  the committee  chair amended  the  proposed legislation  to                                                               
accommodate "a  lot of people" -  possibly to the chagrin  of the                                                               
administration.    He  mentioned  that the  House  State  Affairs                                                               
Standing  Committee moved  [HJR 15]  from committee  [on 3/28/17]                                                               
opposing the REAL ID  Act of 2005.  [HJR 15  passed in the Alaska                                                               
House  of   Representatives  on   4/16/17.]    He   relayed  that                                                               
amendments were added to prevent  certain data transmissions.  He                                                               
conceded that the  public "has data out there  everywhere" - Home                                                               
Depot, Bank of America, SSA, DHS  - and he wants data security as                                                               
much  as anyone.   He  maintained that  testimony indicated  that                                                               
what  would  result  is  not  one big  central  database  but  an                                                               
exchange of verification pointers.   He asserted that if a person                                                               
does not want to obtain a  REAL ID driver's license or ID, he/she                                                               
can opt out and get a passport to travel.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL   offered  that  even  though   legally  and                                                               
technically one may  not need an ID for airplane  travel, for all                                                               
practical purposes, one does.  He  stated that if no one traveled                                                               
with an ID, it  would be a real problem for  the "system" and may                                                               
result in a federal law mandating  an ID for airplane travel.  He                                                               
reminded the committee that the  REAL ID Act originated with [the                                                               
terrorist attacks  of September 11,  2001] and the fact  that the                                                               
attackers  had  fake  driver's   licenses,  which  has  not  been                                                               
mentioned  in the  committee hearings.   He  maintained that  the                                                               
attackers   obtained  these   driver's  licenses   quite  easily;                                                               
obtaining a  fake driver's  license used  to be easy  to do.   He                                                               
opined that  the motivation for the  Act, at the end  of the day,                                                               
is security.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX  offered  that Representatives  Knopp  and                                                               
Tuck  should   be  given  the  opportunity   to  introduce  their                                                               
conceptual amendments and that  discussion and testimony continue                                                               
as needed.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KNOPP declined to offer a conceptual amendment.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:18:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  referred to  the  PIA  performed by  Clerus                                                               
Solutions and  stated that the  Mississippi Department  of Public                                                               
Safety  (DPS)  has included  the  requirement  of  a PIA  in  its                                                               
contract with  AAMVA.   He suggested that  Alaska include  such a                                                               
requirement in its contract with AAMVA.   He referred to a Clerus                                                               
Solutions document  [document not  provided] which refers  to the                                                               
E-Government Act  of 2002  mandating a  PIA on  any substantially                                                               
revised or new  information system.  He maintained  that DOJ, not                                                               
AAMVA, requires that the PIA be  disclosed.  He said that because                                                               
the PIA  is a disclosed  document, he recommends it  be performed                                                               
on  a regular  basis.   He suggested  that Legislative  Legal and                                                               
Research Services  draft an  amendment to  mimic the  language in                                                               
Mississippi's contract with AAMVA.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK stated that  "followers want expediency."  He                                                               
maintained that  through the  proposed legislation,  Alaska would                                                               
be  following, not  a mandate  of the  federal government,  but a                                                               
requirement of  a group of former  AAMVA employees, who set  up a                                                               
system  for which  they receive  sole source  contracts from  the                                                               
federal  government, as  stated in  the PIA.   He  said that  Jay                                                               
Maxwell is the  founder of Clerus Solutions;  served as technical                                                               
advisor to  the U.S.  House Judiciary  Committee staff  while the                                                               
REAL ID  Act was being drafted;  and currently has a  sole source                                                               
contract  through AAMVA  to manage  the program.   Representative                                                               
Tuck said that having no  competition "is probably the reason why                                                               
he took  ten years, but it  would be interesting to  see how much                                                               
money."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK stated, "I think  this is a shakedown, simply                                                               
put, on the  American people, and I  do not like the  way this is                                                               
going  on.   I  don't  like  that  our  attorney general  is  not                                                               
fighting this;  our attorney general  is rather rolling  over and                                                               
having DOA roll along with ...  this."  He opined that the threat                                                               
of not being able to travel by air  is a scare tactic, and it has                                                               
been proven false.   He opined that the threat  of not being able                                                               
to access  base is  also a  scare tactic,  because it  is obvious                                                               
that a person can access base.   He claimed that "this is nothing                                                               
more than  this organization trying  to funnel all this  money to                                                               
themselves and  we're getting shaken  down to do that;  and we're                                                               
getting shaken  down from the  administration; and  we're getting                                                               
shaken  down  from  the federal  government;  and  we're  getting                                                               
shaken down from this Homeland Security."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  maintained that  [participating in  REAL ID]                                                               
introduces  many  privacy  issues.     He  said  that  the  Tenth                                                               
Amendment  to  the U.S.  Constitution  states:   The  powers  not                                                               
delegated  to   the  United  States  by   the  Constitution,  nor                                                               
prohibited  [by] it  to the  states, are  reserved to  the states                                                               
respectively, or  to the public.   He asserted that  the handling                                                               
of  driver's  licenses and  ID  cards  has always  been  Alaska's                                                               
[prerogative].  He stated, "If  you want to circumvent checks and                                                               
balances, if you  want to take care of your  buddies by passing a                                                               
bill in Congress that then gives  all that authority and they can                                                               
willy-nilly change things  as they want to, and  there is nothing                                                               
that the states can do about it  once a bill like this is passed;                                                               
... and you hang  out long enough, you wait 12  years, so it just                                                               
brews and  festers; and then finally  when you get your  SPEXS up                                                               
and you get  your database up, and everything else,  then you can                                                               
go ahead  and put the  clamp down on  states."  He  said, "That's                                                               
basically  how  I  see this  is  going  on.    I'm a  little  bit                                                               
disgusted by it, and I'm not happy  with it, and I think it's ...                                                               
almost a  threat -  if you  do not follow  these lines,  then you                                                               
will not go to work, and you will  not fly - and I think that's a                                                               
false threat."                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:23:38 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL  moved to report  the proposed CS for  HB 74,                                                               
Version  30-GH1781\U,   Martin,  4/10/17,  as  amended,   out  of                                                               
committee  with individual  recommendations and  the accompanying                                                               
fiscal notes.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON objected.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
A  roll  call  vote  was taken.    Representatives  Birch,  Wool,                                                               
LeDoux, and Kreiss-Tomkins voted in  favor of reporting HB 74, as                                                               
amended,  out of  committee.   Representatives  Johnson and  Tuck                                                               
voted against it.   Therefore, CSHB74(STA) was  reported from the                                                               
House State Affairs Standing Committee by a vote of 4-2.                                                                        

Document Name Date/Time Subjects