Legislature(2017 - 2018)GRUENBERG 120

04/04/2017 05:30 PM STATE AFFAIRS

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+= HB 74 DRIVER'S LICENSE & ID CARDS & REAL ID ACT TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
+= HB 165 STATE PERSONNEL ACT: VETERANS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
        HB 74-DRIVER'S LICENSE & ID CARDS & REAL ID ACT                                                                     
                                                                                                                              
5:53:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  announced that the final  order of business                                                               
would  be   HOUSE  BILL   NO.  74,  "An   Act  relating   to  the                                                               
implementation of the  federal REAL ID Act of  2005; and relating                                                               
to issuance  of identification cards  and driver's  licenses; and                                                               
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   KREISS-TOMKINS  stated   that  he   invited  the   Alaska                                                               
[congressional] delegation  - U.S.  Senator Lisa  Murkowski, U.S.                                                               
Senator  Dan Sullivan,  and U.S.  Representative Don  Young -  to                                                               
testify  on  HB 74  during  the  4/6/17  meeting of  House  State                                                               
Affairs  Standing Committee.   He  maintained  that a  frequently                                                               
asked   question  is,   What  is   Congress   doing  about   this                                                               
legislation?  He  offered that he would share  with the committee                                                               
any responses  from their offices.   He mentioned that if  HJR 15                                                               
passes the House, it would be sent to the delegation.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  relayed that in  the past week,  his office                                                               
has  worked  with the  Department  of  Administration (DOA),  the                                                               
Department of  Public Safety (DPS), the  American Civil Liberties                                                               
Union  (ACLU), and  other organizations  to  propose a  committee                                                               
substitute that would maximize privacy protections.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
5:56:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL  moved  to   adopt  the  proposed  committee                                                               
substitute (CS)  for HB 74, Version  30-GH1781\J, Martin, 4/4/17,                                                               
as the working document.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK objected for purpose of discussion.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
5:57:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
STEPHANIE   GILARDI,  Staff,   Representative  Jonathan   Kreiss-                                                               
Tompkins, Alaska  State Legislature, on behalf  of Representative                                                               
Kreiss-Tomkins,  prime   sponsor  of  HB  74,   stated  that  the                                                               
challenge  in amending  HB 74  was addressing  concerns regarding                                                               
data storage and sharing while finding  a way for Alaska to issue                                                               
federally compliant identification (ID)  cards and licenses.  She                                                               
asserted that Version  J was the result of  discussions with DOA,                                                               
the Division  of Motor Vehicles  (DMV), and ACLU; it  was drafted                                                               
to ensure that  Alaska satisfies the requirements of  the REAL ID                                                               
Act when issuing  compliant ID cards and  driver's licenses while                                                               
protecting  Alaskans' privacy.    She maintained  that Version  J                                                               
would  tighten restrictions  on the  ways  in which  data may  be                                                               
stored and  shared, and it  would attempt to create  a meaningful                                                               
distinction  between federally  compliant ID  cards and  licenses                                                               
and those IDs and licenses that are not compliant.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILARDI referred  to Slide 2 of  the PowerPoint presentation,                                                               
entitled  "Overview," and  relayed that  Version J  makes several                                                               
changes to HB  74.  It includes language  that ensures applicants                                                               
are provided with  the information they need to  make an informed                                                               
choice  when  selecting  between compliant  and  noncompliant  ID                                                               
cards and licenses; it uses  specific language to limit the types                                                               
of documents used  to apply for federally compliant  ID cards and                                                               
licenses; and it  specifies the length of time  the documents may                                                               
be retained.   Version J would  limit the retention of  data used                                                               
to apply for  noncompliant ID cards and licenses.   It introduces                                                               
a new  section [into statute]  on data sharing prohibition.   She                                                               
noted there are other, smaller  changes that will be mentioned at                                                               
the end of the presentation.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GILARDI referred  to Slide  3, entitled  "Ensures applicants                                                               
make an  informed [choice] at the  DMV."  She relayed  that HB 74                                                               
offers  the option  of choosing  between a  compliant ID  card or                                                               
license and  a noncompliant  ID card  or license;  the individual                                                               
applying for a  [compliant] ID card or license  must clearly make                                                               
a choice to do so.  She  added that under Version J, an applicant                                                               
who  chooses  a  compliant  card   will  be  required  to  do  so                                                               
affirmatively,  which  may  be  done  by way  of  a  checkbox  or                                                               
signature, and he/she will be  provided information by DOA at the                                                               
time  of application  to help  him/her make  an informed  choice.                                                               
She  explained  that  the information  provided  must  include  a                                                               
description of  both noncompliant  and compliant  cards detailing                                                               
the  storage   and  sharing   of  the   applicant's  information.                                                               
Applicants  will   be  informed  of  the   official  purpose  and                                                               
limitations for using compliant and  noncompliant cards.  The DOA                                                               
will  be required  to notify  the  applicant that  he/she is  not                                                               
compelled to  use a federally  compliant ID card or  license when                                                               
entering  federal  property  or  flying  on  federally  regulated                                                               
commercial  aircraft;  thus, the  applicant  will  be aware  when                                                               
applying for  a compliant card  or license that he/she  could opt                                                               
instead to  use a  passport or  a passport  card to  access these                                                               
places.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
6:00:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILARDI  referred to Slide 4,  entitled "Limits documentation                                                               
and  retention  for  compliant identification  card  and  license                                                               
applications."  She said that  HB 74 states that the commissioner                                                               
[of  DOA] shall  adopt regulations  for the  issuance of  REAL ID                                                               
compliant ID cards  and licenses but does not set  time limits on                                                               
the retention  of documents  used to  apply for  compliant cards.                                                               
She asserted that  Version J would limit to  the minimum required                                                               
by the  REAL ID  Act the retention  of identity  source documents                                                               
provided  when applying  for ID  cards  or licenses.   Version  J                                                               
specifies that after  the length of time required by  the REAL ID                                                               
Act  for  retention of  documents  has  elapsed, those  documents                                                               
would be  destroyed as soon  as practicable.  The  documents that                                                               
must  be destroyed  include digital  or paper  copies, additional                                                               
information related to identity  source documents, the paper copy                                                               
of  the application  itself,  and the  image  of the  applicant's                                                               
face.    Version J  also  would  prohibit copying,  scanning,  or                                                               
retaining  in any  form a  document that  is not  an original  or                                                               
certified  copy that  has been  presented  to verify  information                                                               
included on the application for a compliant card.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILARDI referred  to Slide 5, entitled  "Limits the retention                                                               
of  data   for  noncompliant  identification  card   and  license                                                               
applicants," and  said that HB  74 did not address  the retention                                                               
of  personal data  for noncompliant  cards.   She stated  that to                                                               
further  the goal  of creating  a  meaningful difference  between                                                               
compliant  and  noncompliant cards,  Version  J  would limit  the                                                               
length of  time the image  of a  noncompliant card holder  may be                                                               
stored to one  year after the expiration  of his/her noncompliant                                                               
card or license.  Version J  would also prohibit the retention of                                                               
the image  of an applicant's  face, if the applicant  applies for                                                               
but does not  receive a noncompliant ID card, for  example due to                                                               
failing a driver's test.  She  stated that DMV currently does not                                                               
keep these images, but Version  J would enshrine this practice in                                                               
statute, thus  guarding against the  storage of images  of people                                                               
applying for  either noncompliant  or compliant  cards regardless                                                               
of whether the cards were obtained.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GILARDI referred  to  Slide 6,  entitled  "Introduces a  new                                                               
section, AS  28.05.068 Prohibition  on Data  Sharing."   She said                                                               
that Version  J would introduce  a new section into  statute that                                                               
would  explicitly  prohibit   the  conveyance,  distribution,  or                                                               
communication of  images of faces,  documents, and  signatures to                                                               
databases, pointer systems, or any other index.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
6:03:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILARDI referred to Slide  7, also entitled "Introduces a new                                                               
section, AS  28.05.068 Prohibition  on Data  Sharing."   She said                                                               
that as currently  written, Version J would make  it possible for                                                               
Alaska to contribute  to the State to State  (S2S) pointer system                                                               
administered  by  the  American   Association  of  Motor  Vehicle                                                               
Administrators (AAMVA).  She maintained  that Version J would not                                                               
include  a  prohibition  on   the  conveyance,  distribution,  or                                                               
communication of  Social Security numbers  (SSNs) in whole  or in                                                               
part.   She stated that  while the REAL  ID Act does  not require                                                               
SSNs  to be  stored  in  a database  or  pointer  system that  is                                                               
accessible to other states, the REAL  ID Act does require a state                                                               
to  maintain  a  state  motor   vehicle  database  that  provides                                                               
electronic access  to all other  states to  information contained                                                               
in the database.  She added  that the motor vehicle database must                                                               
contain at  minimum all  the data fields  printed on  a compliant                                                               
driver's license or  a compliant ID card issued by  the state, as                                                               
well  as, motor  vehicle driver  histories, which  included motor                                                               
vehicle violations, suspensions, and points.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GILARDI relayed  that Alaska  currently provides  electronic                                                               
access to its  motor vehicle database and  accesses other states'                                                               
information through  the S2S system  administered by AAMVA.   She                                                               
stated that  DMV uses this system  to check with other  states to                                                               
determine  if  an individual  possesses  more  than one  driver's                                                               
license to detect  and deter driver's license and  ID card fraud.                                                               
She  said  that  DMV  currently shares  information  on  licensed                                                               
drivers  to the  S2S database,  and  under Version  J that  would                                                               
continue  for both  compliant and  noncompliant driver's  license                                                               
holders.  She  asserted that the S2S system is  unique and is the                                                               
only  system currently  in existence  that will  allow Alaska  to                                                               
achieve compliance [with  REAL ID].  The S2S  system includes the                                                               
following information:   full legal  name; former names;  date of                                                               
birth; gender; last five digits  of SSN; and the driver's license                                                               
number.  She  pointed out that while the inclusion  of SSNs in an                                                               
interstate system  is not  required for  REAL ID  Act compliance,                                                               
SSNs are  required by the S2S  data system.  She  reiterated that                                                               
the S2S  data system is  the only  interstate system that  can be                                                               
used by Alaska  to provide other states electronic  access to its                                                               
motor vehicle  information, and that  access is a  requirement of                                                               
the REAL ID Act.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
6:06:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILARDI relayed that if DMV  does not provide SSNs to satisfy                                                               
the  requirements  of participation  in  the  S2S system,  Alaska                                                               
cannot  participate  in  the  S2S  system;  if  Alaska  does  not                                                               
participate in a S2S system, it will not be [REAL ID] compliant.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILARDI referred to Slide  8, entitled "Additional changes in                                                               
the CS,"  and reviewed several  minor revisions under  Version J.                                                               
She  said  that  the  additional  charge  for  both  a  federally                                                               
compliant ID and a federally  compliant license would be $10; the                                                               
amount was  suggested by  DOA.   She explained  that $5  would be                                                               
applied to the  cost of the production of licenses,  and $5 would                                                               
be applied  to reimburse the capital  investment in approximately                                                               
five years.  She added that  charging the same fee for both cards                                                               
helps  to alleviate  some of  the additional  administrative work                                                               
borne by DOA.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILARDI  stated that a  driver's license would expire  on the                                                               
licensee's birthday in the eighth  year following the issuance of                                                               
a  license.   Version  J includes  the  requirement for  physical                                                               
security  features  on  all  licenses  in  lieu  of  the  current                                                               
requirement  of a  hologram.   The  federal government  currently                                                               
requires  that all  driver's  licenses  are federally  compliant;                                                               
Version J would enshrine that requirement in statute.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
6:09:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL  asked for confirmation of  his understanding                                                               
that  SSNs  are  not  required  by  the  REAL  ID  Act;  however,                                                               
participation in  a S2S system  is required.   There is  only one                                                               
S2S  system -  the  one administered  by AAMVA  -  and since  S2S                                                               
requires SSNs, by default REAL ID does require SSNs.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILARDI answered that to her knowledge, that is correct.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS responded that  he and Ms. Gilardi discussed                                                               
this  point during  a  phone  call with  the  U.S. Department  of                                                               
Homeland Security (DHS) and facilitated by  DOA.  He said that he                                                               
asked why  the requirement of  the S2S system  - for SSNs  - goes                                                               
beyond what is required by the  letter of federal law.  He stated                                                               
that the  answer he received to  that question was twofold:   the                                                               
DHS  has promulgated  regulations through  its interpretation  of                                                               
federal law  that SSNs are  required; and because the  S2S system                                                               
requires SSNs  and is "the  only game in  town, the only  game in                                                               
the United States,"  Alaska effectively must comply  with the SSN                                                               
requirement.  He  added that there are both  DHS regulations that                                                               
come to bear,  as well as, the fact that  the S2S system requires                                                               
SSNs; therefore, Alaska  has no other option.   He clarified that                                                               
the S2S  system does  not require  the entire  SSN, but  only the                                                               
last five digits.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL responded  that it  was pointed  out in  the                                                               
previous hearing  on HB 74  [in the House State  Affairs Standing                                                               
Committee  meeting of  3/31/17, 6:01  p.m.], if  the first  three                                                               
digits indicate  the state  from which  a person  originates, and                                                               
another five digits  are known, then the  probability of guessing                                                               
the full SSN is one in ten.   He questioned the security of one's                                                               
SSN.   He  asked  if  one's SSN  is  linked  to his/her  driver's                                                               
license ID number, so that the  license number becomes a de facto                                                               
federal ID.   He mentioned that  SSNs are now assigned  at birth,                                                               
whereas years ago one obtained an SSN for employment.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
6:13:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MARLA  THOMPSON,  Director,  Division of  Motor  Vehicles  (DMV),                                                               
Department of  Administration (DOA),  explained that to  obtain a                                                               
driver's license, one must either  submit his/her SSN or a letter                                                               
stating that he/she is  not able to obtain an SSN.   The DMV does                                                               
link driver's  license information  to SSN;  however, the  SSN is                                                               
not displayed on  the driver's license.  For DMV,  use of the SSN                                                               
is to verify a person's identity.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL asked  what DMV  does with  the SSNs  and if                                                               
they are kept in the DMV's database.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON responded that DMV does  keep the SSNs and uses them                                                               
to verify  identities for online  or in-person  transactions with                                                               
DMV.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
6:14:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX referred  to  the testimony  of Tara  Rich                                                               
[Legal and  Policy Director, ACLU  of Alaska, during  the 3/21/17                                                               
House  State  Affairs  Standing   Committee  meeting],  who  made                                                               
suggestions  for making  [compliance with  REAL ID]  less onerous                                                               
for Alaska.   Representative LeDoux asked if  all the suggestions                                                               
have been [included in Version J] and if not, why not.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
6:15:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ERIC  GLATT,  Staff  Attorney,  American  Civil  Liberties  Union                                                               
(ACLU) of  Alaska, expressed his  belief that Version J  does not                                                               
incorporate all  the suggestions of the  ACLU.  He said  that the                                                               
ACLU has  been opposed to  the REAL ID  Act at the  federal level                                                               
since it  was first introduced by  Congress.  He stated  that the                                                               
ACLU's concern  is that the  Act inherently  compromises privacy.                                                               
He contended that  if Alaska's intent is to comply  with the REAL                                                               
ID Act,  it would  be remiss  of ACLU  staff not  to weigh  in on                                                               
achieving compliance while minimizing  compromise to the greatest                                                               
extent possible.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  relayed that  AAMVA's S2S system  index uses  the last                                                               
five digits  of the SSN,  and Version  J would continue  to allow                                                               
that practice.   He maintained that ACLU regards use  of the five                                                               
SSN  digits  as a  significant  privacy  threat:   the  resulting                                                               
national database  not only would  contain information  about all                                                               
compliant driver's licenses  and IDs in Alaska,  it would contain                                                               
information about all Americans  in states that are participating                                                               
in  the  S2S  system;  a  national  database  containing  such  a                                                               
valuable piece of identifying information is a major concern.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  offered that the  intent of introducing Version  J was                                                               
not to make compliance impossible;  however, the staff at ACLU of                                                               
Alaska urges  Alaska to  continue to pursue  the question  of why                                                               
the [S2S]  index requires information  that the REAL ID  Act does                                                               
not.  He  concluded that because of the progress  [toward REAL ID                                                               
Act  compliance] already  accomplished by  AAMVA through  the S2S                                                               
system and  the fact that  DHS will only  recognize participation                                                               
in that system  as compliance, staff at ACLU  of Alaska currently                                                               
can  see  no way  for  Alaska  to  withhold SSN  information  and                                                               
achieve compliance.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
6:18:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked if Mr.  Glatt has any recommendations                                                               
for what Alaska should do.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GLATT  responded  that there  are  several  approaches  that                                                               
Alaska could take.  He relayed  that AAMVA has indicated that any                                                               
participating state  may make a  request to not share  that [SSN]                                                               
information in  the [S2S] index; such  a request would go  to the                                                               
steering  committee  within  AAMVA  to  determine  if  AAMVA  can                                                               
facilitate  the request.    He suggested  that  Alaska make  that                                                               
request.   He confirmed for Representative  LeDoux that regarding                                                               
SSNs, making that request is the optimal course of action.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  asked if  there are any  other suggestions                                                               
for Alaska  from the  ACLU that have  not been  incorporated into                                                               
Version J, and if so, why not.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT responded  that there is another area  of grave concern                                                               
to  ACLU:   the  scanning  and  retention  of digital  images  of                                                               
documents.   He  explained  that  the REAL  ID  Act requires  any                                                               
applicant for  a compliant card  to have his/her  identity source                                                               
documents scanned and saved in  a digital database for ten years.                                                               
He  expounded  that  currently   when  applying  for  a  driver's                                                               
license,  one  may  present  his/her  passport,  which  would  be                                                               
examined for validity and returned.   He asserted that under REAL                                                               
ID, the passport  would be scanned.  Under Version  J, that would                                                               
not be the case for anyone  applying for a noncompliant card.  He                                                               
relayed that there  is a dispute between DHS  and AAMVA regarding                                                               
the interpretation of "identity source documents."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  said that  among the documents  that may  be presented                                                               
for  a  compliant   driver's  license  is  a   utility  bill  for                                                               
verification of  address, and a pay  stub, a 1099 form,  or a W-2                                                               
form  for   verification  of   SSN.     He  stated   that  ACLU's                                                               
interpretation of  the Act and  the regulations  implementing the                                                               
Act is  that those  documents should  not be  considered identity                                                               
source documents and  should not be subject to  scanning and held                                                               
in  a  database  for  ten  years.    He  maintained  that  anyone                                                               
concerned about his/her privacy  would not appreciate his/her tax                                                               
forms being held  in a second database; once  the information has                                                               
been examined  and verified, keeping  it in a database  serves no                                                               
statutory purpose or security interest.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GLATT offered  that because  there  is a  dispute among  the                                                               
ACLU, DHS, and AAMVA about documents  being scanned and kept in a                                                               
database, Version  J endeavors to  incorporate the  same disputed                                                               
language from  the REAL ID Act.   In that way,  interpretation of                                                               
that  language can  be addressed  another day  while at  the same                                                               
time there  is no doubt  about Alaska's compliance with  the REAL                                                               
ID Act,  because the language  in Version J matches  the language                                                               
in the REAL ID Act and the regulations.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
6:23:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  asked if the  way Version J is  written is                                                               
"OK or not OK."                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT explained that the  ACLU continues to believe that REAL                                                               
ID represents a  significant compromise of people's  privacy.  He                                                               
expressed his  belief that if  Alaska's intent is to  comply with                                                               
the REAL  ID Act, Version  J endeavors  to put Alaska  within the                                                               
scope of  compliance and  leave the contested  issue alive  to be                                                               
resolved at another time.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS offered  that Version  J addresses  many of                                                               
the suggested  revisions of the ACLU  but not all of  them - most                                                               
notably  the two  mentioned  by  Mr. Glatt.    He suggested  that                                                               
committee  members  wishing  to   address  the  two  issues  [not                                                               
addressed] offer  amendments.  He  summarized that there  are two                                                               
outstanding ACLU concerns; however,  Version J does include other                                                               
privacy improvements to HB 74.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GLATT agreed  that Version  J does  incorporate most  of the                                                               
recommendations made  by Ms. Rich,  and his testimony  focused on                                                               
the aspects  of Version  J that  the ACLU  of Alaska  still finds                                                               
troubling.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked if ACLU  of Alaska staff could assist                                                               
in writing an  amendment to address these two issues  in a manner                                                               
to comply with the REAL ID Act in the most minimal way possible.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GLATT  answered absolutely;  however,  the  language of  the                                                               
amendment   would   have   to  include   recognition   that   the                                                               
requirements of  the S2S system  - the only system  recognized by                                                               
DHS - goes beyond the requirements of the Act.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  stated that  the State of  Alaska is  in an                                                               
awkward position -  one in which an amendment to  Version J would                                                               
meet federal law but not work  with the S2S system.  He suggested                                                               
that  through his  discussion  with DHS  staff  this morning,  he                                                               
learned that even if Alaska is  compliant with federal law, if it                                                               
cannot  work  with   the  S2S  system,  it  would   be  ruled  as                                                               
noncompliant  and, therefore,  penalties would  apply.   He added                                                               
that  if that  is the  will of  the legislature,  then litigation                                                               
might ensue;  however, that  would be for  the committee  and the                                                               
legislature to decide.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
6:27:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  reiterated  that  any  change  in  the  S2S                                                               
system, which is  managed by the State  Pointer Exchange Services                                                               
(SPEXS) and  [operated] by AAMVA,  would be decided by  a general                                                               
committee  or general  counsel [of  AAMVA].   He asked  how those                                                               
committee members are selected or appointed.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON responded  that there is a governance  board for the                                                               
S2S specifically and she serves on that board.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK asked  how long Ms. Thompson has  been on the                                                               
governance board.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON answered that she has  been on the board since March                                                               
1, 2017.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   TUCK  reiterated   that   neither  the   federal                                                               
government nor the  [REAL ID] Act requires SSNs  as an identifier                                                               
for compliance  with REAL ID;  however, AAMVA does  require SSNs.                                                               
He asked what  identity documents are used under the  REAL ID Act                                                               
for compliance  when the SSN is  not used for proof  of identity,                                                               
since the SSN is not required under the REAL ID Act.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON  answered that  based on  discussions with  DHS, the                                                               
S2S is what  is required for Alaska to be  compliant and required                                                               
for  S2S is  the last  five  digits of  the SSN,  along with  the                                                               
applicant's name and date of birth.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK  suggested that the requirement  for SSNs for                                                               
the  S2S is  the decision  of  the [AAMVA  governance] board;  he                                                               
asked what DHS requires as a compliant ID for identification.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS.  THOMPSON  replied  that the  source  documents  include  the                                                               
following:   a  birth  certificate, which  is  verified with  the                                                               
birth certificate  database; an SSN,  which is verified  with the                                                               
Social  Security Online  Verification  System  (SSOLV) under  the                                                               
U.S.  Social  Security  Administration (SSA);  a  certificate  of                                                               
citizenship  or  naturalization;  and  a  foreign  passport  with                                                               
approved visas attached.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
6:32:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK stated  that in late January  when DOA joined                                                               
AAMVA, full  SSNs were uploaded to  the S2S system.   He asked if                                                               
there is any way Alaska could retrieve those SSNs.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS expressed his  understanding that Alaska has                                                               
been  a  member  of  AAMVA  for some  time,  but  since  January,                                                               
Alaska's representative  to AAMVA  was elevated to  membership on                                                               
the governing board.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON  responded that  Alaska has been  a member  of AAMVA                                                               
for years.   She said that  AAMVA is an association  that bridges                                                               
states   together  so   that  drivers   are  properly   licensed:                                                               
commercial driver's license (CDL)  drivers are properly licensed;                                                               
the  Problem  Driver  Pointer  System   (PDPS)  is  consulted  to                                                               
identify people with driving under  the influence (DUI) offenses;                                                               
and people with suspended driver's  licenses are identified.  She                                                               
maintained that there  is a great deal of data  that states share                                                               
to ensure valid and proper driver's licenses.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  asked  if  there has  been  an  attempt  to                                                               
retrieve  Alaska's SSNs  after  they were  uploaded  [to the  S2S                                                               
system}.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON  answered that AAMVA  only receives the  five digits                                                               
of the  SSN, the  date of birth,  and first and  last name.   She                                                               
maintained that this information is  used to index to ensure that                                                               
there is not  a duplicate driver's license and  to determine what                                                               
state has issued a driver's license.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK asked if that is already occurring.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. THOMPSON responded yes.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
6:35:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  BIRCH asked  if government  or a  business has  a                                                               
duty or responsibility to determine a person's identity.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT relayed  instances in which the government  has a right                                                               
to  determine  a  person's  identity:    it  controls  access  to                                                               
military bases;  it has assumed control  over federally regulated                                                               
air  space, which  explains the  presence  of the  Transportation                                                               
Security  Administration (TSA)  personnel in  airports performing                                                               
identity checks;  and the Identity  Project, which  proports that                                                               
if  someone   does  not  wish  to   present  documents  verifying                                                               
identity,   than   he/she  can   submit   to   a  more   thorough                                                               
individualized  screening  to  establish  that he/she  is  not  a                                                               
danger.    He  maintained  that for  someone  "walking  down  the                                                               
street," if  the police do not  suspect him/her of a  crime, they                                                               
are  not allowed  to demand  identification and  find him/her  in                                                               
violation  if he/she  fails to  do  so.   He said  that absent  a                                                               
reasonable suspicion  of a  violation of the  law, a  request for                                                               
identification is not an inquiry the government can make.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH asked Mr. Glatt  if he concedes that at some                                                               
level and  at some point,  it is a  duty and responsibility  of a                                                               
business and  government to  affirm that a  person is  who he/she                                                               
claims to be.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  answered that  he has not  considered the  question of                                                               
whether  a private  operator may  refuse service  to someone  who                                                               
fails  to meet  that  private  operator's independent  assessment                                                               
that the person  is who he/she claims to be.   He maintained that                                                               
if  someone  is holding  oneself  out  as  a provider  of  public                                                               
accommodations, such  as a  restaurant, there  are discrimination                                                               
laws  protecting certain  classes  of people  from being  treated                                                               
differently; however,  he stated that  he has never  examined the                                                               
situation  in  which  a  business would  only  serve  people  who                                                               
identified themselves  first and convinced the  business operator                                                               
that they are who they say they are.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH offered that in  the case of someone getting                                                               
on  an airplane,  it is  important  that a  person's identity  is                                                               
verified because of security reasons.   He asked for the best way                                                               
to  achieve that;  he mentioned  biometrics,  iris scans,  finger                                                               
prints,  and   deoxyribonucleic  acid  (DNA),  as   well  as  the                                                               
documentation alternatives such as  birth certificate.  He stated                                                               
that he has attended meetings  this week regarding credit scores,                                                               
in which access to Facebook pages  was mentioned.  He asked if it                                                               
is  truly possible  anymore  for  someone to  be  anonymous.   He                                                               
offered  that one  can  find  a "mountain"  of  information on  a                                                               
person  by searching  the  internet.   He  said,  "I'm trying  to                                                               
figure out if  we're making a mountain out of  a mole hill here."                                                               
He maintained that  the issue is valid and  important but offered                                                               
that there are  "tons" of information out there on  everyone.  He                                                               
offered  that one's  digital footprints  may include  that he/she                                                               
bought Wheaties  for breakfast,  and he  referred to  "all that's                                                               
out  there."   He asked  Mr. Glatt  for his  sense of  [access to                                                               
personal  information] and  privacy matters,  gained through  his                                                               
research and work with ACLU.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
6:41:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  replied that he  considers [privacy] a  very important                                                               
issue.   He maintained that  today many Americans have  the sense                                                               
that the  loss of  privacy is already  a foregone  conclusion, so                                                               
there is no  point in caring.  He offered  that the committee has                                                               
heard  testimony  in  support  of   HB  74  by  people  who  have                                                               
prioritized  expediency  in   getting  the  proposed  legislation                                                               
passed above paying attention to  the details.  He mentioned that                                                               
the  ACLU  appreciates  that the  committee  members  are  paying                                                               
attention to  the details  because the  details matter,  and they                                                               
matter to privacy in general.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  referred to Representative Birch's  question regarding                                                               
a person's  commercial "lives" in  relation to  Facebook, Google,                                                               
internet service  providers (ISPs),  and information  brokers who                                                               
compile  information about  people  from  publicly available  and                                                               
accessible  databases.   He  said that  he  realizes many  people                                                               
believe  it is  too late  to  remedy the  situation described  by                                                               
Representative Birch, but  he maintained that the  ACLU and other                                                               
privacy advocate  organizations do  not believe  it is  too late.                                                               
He compared  it to  taking a snapshot  of the  working conditions                                                               
before the labor  movement and concluding that it is  too late to                                                               
do anything about  them:  workers today would not  have a two-day                                                               
weekend, a  40-hour workweek, and  minimum wage, and  there would                                                               
still be child  labor.  He asserted that when  enough people come                                                               
together  to "express  their will,"  they can  change what  might                                                               
otherwise appear to  be foregone conclusions.   He suggested that                                                               
people  look to  Europe, which  has much  more stringent  privacy                                                               
protections  in the  commercial sphere  than America.   He  added                                                               
that if  the discussions regarding  privacy prevail,  there still                                                               
would be  hope for  America that  commercial privacy  will assert                                                               
itself more  than it does  today.  He  stated that this  issue is                                                               
certainly one that the ACLU will continue to pursue.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH  mentioned Ancestry.com, credit  scores, and                                                               
the digital presence,  and added that he  appreciated Mr. Glatt's                                                               
testimony.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
6:44:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON asked  about the use of SSNs  in Alaska to                                                               
index facial recognition  properties.  She offered  that doing so                                                               
constitutes  a stronger  connection and  makes the  database more                                                               
accessible.   She  asked  if  Mr. Glatt  had  any information  on                                                               
whether this  kind of indexed  connection has been  a requirement                                                               
in Alaska or anywhere else.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  answered that if the  question is why SSNs  are linked                                                               
to driver's  licenses and identity  cards and if there  are other                                                               
instances of similar  linkage with SSNs, he does not  know of any                                                               
other  instances in  which  SSNs  are used  in  a state  specific                                                               
context, other  than for licensing  drivers.  He  maintained that                                                               
the SSN linkage with driver's  licenses and identity cards exists                                                               
partly as  a function of federal  and state laws to  cooperate in                                                               
child  support services  provisions in  the federal  law if,  for                                                               
example,  someone endeavors  to evade  child support  payments by                                                               
moving out  of state and  obtaining a  new driver's license.   He                                                               
offered his belief  that it was for this reason  that SSN entered                                                               
the driver's licenses realm.  He  maintained that the use of SSNs                                                               
serves as one  of the tools for enforcing child  support laws and                                                               
represents  the  specific  nexus   for  tying  SSNs  to  driver's                                                               
licenses.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS   offered  that   Representative  Johnson's                                                               
question referred to the linkage  between facial and photographic                                                               
data and SSNs.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  stated that she  is unaware of  any state                                                               
database that  has her SSN linked  with her metric data  and that                                                               
is being shared in any way.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  responded that it  is true that even  for noncompliant                                                               
ID licenses in  Alaska, the databases maintained by  DMV even now                                                               
include both the  digital image of one's face and  the SSN, which                                                               
has been  the policy for less  than ten years.   He conceded that                                                               
he is  unaware of  how those  combinations of  biometrics, facial                                                               
images, and SSNs are used, even within DMV.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
6:47:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL  relayed his  understanding as follows:   All                                                               
the  states  share  data  to  determine if  an  applicant  for  a                                                               
driver's  license  has a  license  in  another state,  a  revoked                                                               
license in  another state, a  CDL, and to  verify identity.    If                                                               
the applicant gives DMV his/her name  and date of birth and there                                                               
is another person with the same  name and date of birth, then DMV                                                               
uses  the  last  five  digits  of the  SSN  to  distinguish  that                                                               
applicant  from the  other  person.   He  asked  if  there is  an                                                               
alternative to using  the last five digits of the  SSN, such as a                                                               
digital  image, that  would satisfy  the verification  process in                                                               
this case.  He asked, "What would AAMVA do?"                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  opined that the question  is an excellent one  to pose                                                               
to AAMVA.  He said that if AAMVA  were to give up using SSNs as a                                                               
tool to  reduce the  number of  false positives,  one alternative                                                               
simply  would  be  to  manually   check  the  person's  image  to                                                               
determine  if  the  person  is  who he/she  claims  to  be.    He                                                               
reiterated that  the possibility of  using an alternative  to the                                                               
last five digits of the SSN  should be presented to AAMVA so that                                                               
states would have an alternative.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
6:50:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL  expressed  his understanding  that  Alaska,                                                               
although not  currently REAL ID compliant,  presently shares data                                                               
containing  the last  five  digits of  the SSN  with  AAMVA in  a                                                               
system.  He stated that he did  not know if the data is exchanged                                                               
or just viewed;  in any case, it is currently  being used and the                                                               
only way to  prevent its use would  be to retrieve the  data.  He                                                               
asked if the  data resides in an Alaska location  and is accessed                                                               
by  other  states through  a  central  port  or  if the  data  is                                                               
uploaded to some other server in a non-Alaska location.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  answered that  he is  unable to  speak authoritatively                                                               
about   exactly   what  the   S2S   system   operated  by   AAMVA                                                               
accomplishes.  He said his  understanding is that a central index                                                               
for the S2S system is managed  in Virginia and operated by AAMVA,                                                               
and  in  that index,  are  several  identifying factors  for  all                                                               
compliant state  licensees.   He added  that the  identifiers are                                                               
first name, last  name, all prior names, date of  birth, the type                                                               
of license, the  state of issue, and the last  five digits of the                                                               
SSN.  This comprises the part  of the record used to identify the                                                               
full  record  that  a  state   or  territory  maintains  for  its                                                               
licensees.  It is in the  full record that the driver history can                                                               
be  found, including  the existence  of  points, suspension,  and                                                               
other information about the driver.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GLATT said  that the  central  index, managed  by AAMVA  and                                                               
located in Virginia, is meant to  locate records.  He stated that                                                               
the inclusion  of SSNs in the  index causes ACLU of  Alaska great                                                               
concern,  and he  asked, "If  all it's  meant to  do is  locate a                                                               
record, why should  it have something so valuable  included in it                                                               
on the front end?"                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. Glatt  relayed that he  did not know  if Alaska or  the other                                                               
S2S participating states  are using the pilot program  as it will                                                               
be used once compliance for all  states is operational or if they                                                               
simply are testing  it.  He offered his  understanding that until                                                               
Alaska and the other states  participated in S2S, they utilized a                                                               
more cumbersome  process of relying  on faxes and  "sifting" data                                                               
to verify  that an applicant does  not already have a  license in                                                               
another state  or is trying to  hide his/her record.   He stated,                                                               
"To  that  question of  -  How  do you  know?  -  it was  a  very                                                               
cumbersome process."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
6:54:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL  referred to a  passport and a  passport card                                                               
as alternatives to  a REAL ID card and offered  that because they                                                               
were  in  a  separate  database,  they  were  more  secure.    He                                                               
speculated that  the government agency that  issues passports has                                                               
his  name, date  of  birth, SSN,  and all  the  other data  being                                                               
discussed.  He  asked how the database used to  implement REAL ID                                                               
is  different from  the  passport  database and  why  it is  more                                                               
concerning.   He  asked if  the reason  is that  the data  is not                                                               
shared with other states or that it is less accessible.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GLATT  replied that  the  context  of Representative  Wool's                                                               
questions is,  What's one more  database?  He offered  an analogy                                                               
as  explanation:   Someone gives  a  neighbor a  copy of  his/her                                                               
house key in case  he/she gets locked out of the  house.  In this                                                               
case, the  neighbor is a  trusted person  who can be  relied upon                                                               
not to  misuse the key.   If the key  is given to  ten neighbors,                                                               
anyone of whom  may intend some mischief or is  careless with the                                                               
key, then one breach resulting  in someone making multiple copies                                                               
of  the key  would cause  a serious  problem.   He conceded  that                                                               
national databases do exist -   such as at the U.S. Department of                                                               
State  (DOS) for  passports, the  Internal Revenue  Service (IRS)                                                               
for  taxes, and  SSA for  issuing retirement  benefits -  and the                                                               
state  has its  own databases;  however, he  maintained that  the                                                               
presence  of these  databases does  not justify  having one  more                                                               
database.  He  asserted that having one more  database that could                                                               
be attractive to a [security]  "hacker" or identity thief, is one                                                               
more unnecessary risk.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KREISS-TOMKINS   asked  Mr.   Glatt  to  comment   on  the                                                               
difference  between SSA,  DOS, IRS,  and AAMVA  as custodians  of                                                               
data and the relative cyber security maintained by each agency.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. GLATT  responded that the  federal government is  governed by                                                               
the federal Privacy Act [of  1974] whenever it manages personally                                                               
identifiable  information  (PII) in  a  system  of records.    He                                                               
stated that a federal agency  that maintains PII must comply with                                                               
many  standards and  must conduct  a  privacy impact  assessment,                                                               
which  becomes publicly  available.   The public  has a  right to                                                               
information about  what a government  agency is doing  to protect                                                               
people's privacy.   He maintained that any time  a federal agency                                                               
implements a program  that will impact people's  privacy, it must                                                               
perform  a  privacy impact  assessment.    He asserted  that  for                                                               
states  creating a  database maintained  by a  private non-profit                                                               
organization, the  Privacy Act does  not apply.  He  offered that                                                               
Alaska's  Freedom  of  Information Act  provisions  [Alaska  Open                                                               
Records Law, AS 40.25.110] allow  Alaskans to request information                                                               
about records  that Alaska  shares with  S2S, or  AAMVA; however,                                                               
AAMVA does  not have a  legal obligation to  do the same  type of                                                               
assessment  to  make  itself  transparent,  as  would  a  federal                                                               
agency.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
6:58:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK stated  that the question is,  Is it hopeless                                                               
to fight for privacy because no  one cares or because it is truly                                                               
hopeless?   He relayed that SSA  advises against the use  of SSNs                                                               
for [issuing  driver's licenses].   He said that  Alaska driver's                                                               
licenses no  long display  SSNs.   He expressed  his appreciation                                                               
for the recommendation by the ACLU  of Alaska that "we should not                                                               
give up."                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK relayed  his  experience  when traveling  by                                                               
plane from  Juneau to Anchorage on  March 1, 1917:   He forgot to                                                               
take his  wallet, therefore, flew without  any ID.  The  TSA gave                                                               
him  a "red  bin"  and screened  him  using pat-down  procedures.                                                               
Coming back  to Juneau by plane,  he was able to  use his expired                                                               
Costco card [at the TSA checkpoint].   He asked if Mr. Glatt knew                                                               
what may be required in the future as ID for plane travel.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.   GLATT   answered   that   the   experience   described   by                                                               
Representative Tuck  is a  perfect example of  the fact  that one                                                               
does  not  need an  ID  to  gain  access to  federally  regulated                                                               
airspace; by subjecting oneself to  further screening, there is a                                                               
way to  get past the security  checkpoint.  He stated  that he is                                                               
not aware  of a federal law  or rule pending that  would prohibit                                                               
that access.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  pointed  out  that  based  on  Mr.  Glatt's                                                               
testimony, privacy  is not dead.   He noted that in  the November                                                               
issue  of Consumer  Reports, there  is  an article  about how  to                                                             
protect one's privacy.   The author of the  article writes, "I've                                                               
called the bluff  on those who believe privacy is  dead; in fact,                                                               
there is  a lot you  can still  do."  Representative  Tuck asked,                                                               
"Why  in the  world  would we  want  to be  giving  up all  these                                                               
documentations to  something that is  not federally secure?"   He                                                               
stated that  the article also  points out  that "data is  the new                                                               
currency," and private entities clamor  for it.  He mentioned the                                                               
new  surveillance  industrial  complex   that  is  continuing  to                                                               
expand; it is a multi-billion-dollar  trade in personal data.  He                                                               
reiterated his appreciation for the  efforts of ACLU of Alaska to                                                               
ensure the privacy rights of Alaskans are secure.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
7:03:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
LESLIE RIDLE,  Deputy Commissioner, Department  of Administration                                                               
(DOA),  explained that  although  she has  immediate comments  on                                                               
Version J, she reserves the  right to more formally respond after                                                               
a  more thorough  study of  the proposed  CS and  discussion with                                                               
staff and  the attorney general.   She referred to page  2, lines                                                               
13-19, to  point out a  requirement that she believes  would make                                                               
Alaska  noncompliant [with  the REAL  ID Act]  - the  requirement                                                               
prohibiting  DOA  from  keeping source  documents  for  compliant                                                               
cards.  She reminded the  committee that Mr. Glatt indicated that                                                               
the Alaska Department of Law (DOL)  and DHS disagree with ACLU on                                                               
what documents are required.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE referred to page 2,  lines 26-27, which states that the                                                               
state  or  municipal  government  may not  require  a  person  to                                                               
possess  or use  an ID  card that  is federally  compliant.   She                                                               
asserted  that  within the  Department  of  Military &  Veterans'                                                               
Affairs  (DMVA),  the  state currently  does  require  people  to                                                               
access base to  work.  She said the state  is considering whether                                                               
it must  change all  its personnel descriptions  to include  as a                                                               
condition of employment the requirement  of a federally compliant                                                               
license allowing plane  travel or for accessing  a military base.                                                               
She added that this would not  apply to all state jobs, but some.                                                               
She expressed her  concern that the sentence [in  Version J] that                                                               
she cited  would keep  the State  of Alaska  from saying  that an                                                               
employee must  be able to  travel by plane  or access a  base, if                                                               
that is needed for the job.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  asked why  not simply require  an employee                                                               
to be  able to access a  base or to  travel by plane.   She posed                                                               
the question, If  a state employee decides to have  a passport in                                                               
lieu of  a REAL ID  card, why require him/her  to have a  REAL ID                                                               
card?                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE responded that since page  2, lines 26-27, of Version J                                                               
states that  the state  government can't  require an  employee to                                                               
use a  federally compliant ID  card, and a passport  is federally                                                               
compliant, her belief  is that Version J would  prevent the state                                                               
from requiring even a passport.   She added that she will clarify                                                               
this point with the attorney general.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
7:07:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE referred  to page 3, line 7,  [which prohibits copying,                                                               
scanning, or  retaining the SSN]  and pointed out that  there are                                                               
other agencies that  use the SSN, such as  Child Support Services                                                               
Division (CSSD) for  the enforcement of child support,  for a PFD                                                               
application,  and the  Unemployment  Insurance  (UI) program  for                                                               
application for  benefits.  She  reminded the committee  that DOA                                                               
databases are shared with the  Department of Public Safety (DPS),                                                               
which  is   used  to  investigate  PFD   fraud  and  unemployment                                                               
insurance benefit fraud.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE  referred to Section  4 on  page 4, lines  11-15, which                                                               
states that DOA  may not share data with an  entity or individual                                                               
that is not  a state agency or employee or  permit the conveyance                                                               
or distribution of the data  with any entity [or individual] that                                                               
is not  a state agency  or employee.   She expressed  her concern                                                               
that  this  would  prevent police  departments  and  the  Federal                                                               
Bureau of Investigation (FBI) from  accessing DOA data, which may                                                               
create too  much of a limitation  on data sharing.   She said she                                                               
would consult  with the attorney  general and DPS  regarding this                                                               
issue.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE  referred to  page 5,  line 9,  which she  asserted was                                                               
confusing and  may need  clarification.  It  states that  DOA may                                                               
not keep an image of  the applicant's face, regardless of whether                                                               
the applicant has  renewed his/her ID card, but  if he/she renews                                                               
the ID card, DOA must keep the applicant's photo.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE referred  to page 5, lines 11-17,  which also prohibits                                                               
the  retention  of   source  documents  for  REAL   ID,  and  she                                                               
maintained that  DHS has indicated  that these documents  must be                                                               
retained;  therefore,  it  is  her   belief  that  adopting  this                                                               
requirement would make Alaska noncompliant.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE referred  to page 5, lines 24-25,  which also prohibits                                                               
the  state  from  requiring  a  person  to  possess  a  federally                                                               
compliant license.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
7:10:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RIDLE referred  to page  7, Section  9, which  restricts the                                                               
sharing of photos.  She maintained  that DOA has worked with ACLU                                                               
and met  with them four  or five times, both  with Representative                                                               
Kreiss-Tomkins,  with  DMV,  and  alone.   She  referred  to  the                                                               
question posed  by Representative  Johnson regarding  the sharing                                                               
of photos in  conjunction with SSNs and stated that  DOA does not                                                               
share photos outside  the state unless presented  with a subpoena                                                               
or  court  order.    She  stated that  DOA  fully  supports  that                                                               
restriction.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RIDLE  continued  by saying  that  DOA  offered  amendments,                                                               
requested  by ACLU,  addressing  the retention  of  records.   In                                                               
response   to   Representative   LeDoux's   question   on   which                                                               
recommendations were  not incorporated into Version  J, Ms. Ridle                                                               
declared that  DOA did not  include the amendments  requiring DOA                                                               
to store  all records and  paper in lieu  of scanning them.   She                                                               
asserted that  the sheer volume  of paper  to be retained  in DOA                                                               
archives  would be  overwhelming.   She  maintained  that DOA  is                                                               
attempting  to  balance  efficiency -  having  documents  readily                                                               
accessible  in multiple  locations  - with  privacy  - the  total                                                               
private storage of data.   She reiterated that she is sympathetic                                                               
to  the public's  desire keep  its information  private; however,                                                               
the public expects efficiency as well.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
7:13:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH  asked what concerns exist  regarding facial                                                               
recognition.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RIDLE answered  that  DOA  does not  share  data outside  of                                                               
Alaska, and one's  photo should not show up  anywhere else unless                                                               
he/she has used it, or the police  have "put it up"; the DMV does                                                               
not give it out.   She gave as an example the  case of the person                                                               
from Alaska  who committed  a crime in  the Florida  airport; the                                                               
DMV got  many requests  for his  photo but did  not comply.   She                                                               
maintained  that  subsequently his  photo  was  released, but  it                                                               
wasn't his driver's license photo.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE  relayed that after someone  comes into DMV and  gets a                                                               
driver's license,  DMV will check  its own database at  night for                                                               
other pictures of  the applicant, photos of  anyone else applying                                                               
for a  driver's license under the  same name, or photos  that the                                                               
computer  finds  that  look  somewhat   like  the  photo  of  the                                                               
applicant.  She said that  "human" review usually clearly reveals                                                               
there is  no fraud; however,  DMV does  find about five  cases of                                                               
possible fraud per month, which are  turned over to the police to                                                               
be  investigated.   She  maintained  that  DMV does  not  compare                                                               
Alaska photos to photos outside of its database.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH asked  if DMV then would use  the other data                                                               
points such  date of  birth or  location of  birth to  review the                                                               
matches.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE said  that she understood why people  might want photos                                                               
destroyed after one year but  maintained that DPS used historical                                                               
photos for investigating crime and for identity questions.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
7:16:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  referred to  the original  presentation of                                                               
HB 74 [during  the 2/7/17 House State  Affairs Standing Committee                                                               
meeting] and  said that her  understanding is that it  would take                                                               
five  years  for  the  state  to recoup  the  money  invested  in                                                               
implementing the  program.  She  said that  her hope is  that the                                                               
cost  would be  recouped  in  one or  two  years [through  higher                                                               
fees].   She  asked what  fees  would be  required to  accomplish                                                               
that.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE answered  that the $5 [per person] fee  would cover the                                                               
cost to  produce the REAL ID  driver's licenses and cards;  a $10                                                               
fee would  pay back the  $1.5 million cost  in five years;  and a                                                               
$20 fee  would cut that  time in  half [for recouping  the cost].                                                               
She  added that  these  estimates  are based  on  about half  the                                                               
number  of  people  getting driver's  licenses  getting  REAL  ID                                                               
licenses:   if more got  REAL ID  licenses, it would  be recouped                                                               
faster; if less  got them, it would take longer.   She maintained                                                               
that  the estimate  [of  half]  is based  on  numbers from  other                                                               
states provided by DHS.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX asked  for  clarification  that under  the                                                               
current version  of the proposed  legislation, someone  wanting a                                                               
REAL ID would have to pay an extra $10.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE replied yes.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX asked  if someone  getting a  new driver's                                                               
license would have to pay $5 plus the extra $10 for it.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE explained  that under Version J, the cost  of a REAL ID                                                               
driver's license  would be  the cost  of a  noncompliant driver's                                                               
license - $25 - plus an extra $10 for a total of $35.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX suggested  that a  person may  not need  a                                                               
driver's license except  for the REAL ID requirement.   She asked                                                               
what  someone would  pay  under  Version J  of  HB  74 if  he/she                                                               
applied for a driver's license.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RIDLE  responded  that for  someone  obtaining  a  brand-new                                                               
license, it would cost $35.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked how long  it would take to recoup the                                                               
cost of  the program  if charging  $10 extra  per license  - five                                                               
years or ten years.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE  answered that  at the  extra $10  cost, it  would take                                                               
five years [to recoup the money spent for the program].                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  asked what  the fee would  have to  be for                                                               
the state to pay for the program in two years.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RIDLE responded  that with  a $45  fee, the  money could  be                                                               
recouped in about two years.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  clarified that the $45  represents an extra                                                               
$20 over the $25 cost of a noncompliant driver's license.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
7:20:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL   offered  that  because  AAMVA   is  not  a                                                               
recognized  federal agency,  it  is the  least  trusted for  data                                                               
security; it is  a non-profit made up of 51  entities that can do                                                               
as it pleases - "a bit of a loose cannon."                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE  responded that AAMVA "is  us"; it consists of  all the                                                               
DMVs  and has  been in  existence since  1933.   The AAMVA  is an                                                               
organization of  all state  DMVs that came  together to:   ensure                                                               
uniform  procedures for  Americans to  get licenses;  ensure that                                                               
licenses across the country have  the same "strength"; and ensure                                                               
that CDLs were  valid across states.  She pointed  out that AAMVA                                                               
partners  with SSA  to provide  a  "pointer system"  for the  SSA                                                               
database and with [SPEXS] to  facilitate the S2S database.  Other                                                               
partnerships include  data sharing  with the  Commercial Driver's                                                               
License  Information System  (CDLIS),  the  DHS Systematic  Alien                                                               
Verification  for  Entitlements  (SAVE)   Program,  and  the  DHS                                                               
passport  database.   She asserted  that  many agencies  consider                                                               
AAMVA  a  stable group  of  states;  it  is  the DMVs  that  come                                                               
together and make the rules by which AAMVA operates.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
7:23:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  pointed out that  AAMVA is to  Alaska's DMV                                                               
as the  National Conference  of State  Legislatures (NCSL)  is to                                                               
the  Alaska legislature,  except that  AAMVA has  more functional                                                               
responsibilities for coordinating policy than does NCSL.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE  replied, "That's a  perfect analogy."  She  added that                                                               
the  National   Governors  Association  (NGA)  is   another  good                                                               
example.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL commented that  his assumption is that Alaska                                                               
has been  a member  of AAMVA  since it had  a DMV.   He  asked if                                                               
there  have  been  any  data breaches  or  any  major  incidences                                                               
related to  data.  He also  asked if there is  a central database                                                               
in  Virginia, maintained  by  a group  of  AAMVA personnel,  with                                                               
which all 51 DMVs interface.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE  answered that she  does not  know if the  database has                                                               
been breached.   She asserted  that when  the REAL ID  Act became                                                               
law  and the  regulations  were  created, the  51  DMVs began  to                                                               
consider how best to comply.   The question was, What is the best                                                               
way  to verify  a person's  identity when  he/she comes  into the                                                               
DMV?   She maintained  that AAMVA  consulted privacy  experts and                                                               
researched best  practices of  encryption to  create a  system in                                                               
which a state could verify  someone's identity and determine that                                                               
he/she is  not a  problem driver  and doesn't  have a  license in                                                               
another state.   She stated that in the past,  DMV used faxes and                                                               
phone calls  to obtain  this information,  which most  likely did                                                               
not meet  privacy standards and  was not efficient.   She relayed                                                               
that when  Alaska began  utilizing the  [S2S system],  Alaska DMV                                                               
found  3,200  people  with   duplicate  licenses;  Alaska's  best                                                               
efforts could not avoid missing  duplicate licenses.  She pointed                                                               
out that  not all  3,200 people were  being fraudulent;  some did                                                               
not want to admit they had  another license or couldn't locate it                                                               
to submit it.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. RIDLE, in response to  Representative Wool's second question,                                                               
said that  her understanding is  that queries are  transmitted to                                                               
AAMVA  by computer  and answers  are transmitted  back to  DMV by                                                               
computer.  The  question of whether someone  has another driver's                                                               
license is  answered with a "yes"  or "no"; DMV personnel  do not                                                               
see  any background  information  except the  name  of the  other                                                               
state that issued  the person a driver's license.   She suggested                                                               
that there  are a couple other  keystrokes used - one  example is                                                               
the keystroke to  cancel the other license.   She emphasized that                                                               
only  DMV personnel  can access  the data  through the  "bridge";                                                               
employees of DPS or the  Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) do                                                               
not have access.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
7:27:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL asked how many  people within DMV have access                                                               
to the bridge.   He suggested that a disgruntled  clerk, angry at                                                               
someone, could access the data.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RIDLE  responded  that  DMV   employees  are  subject  to  a                                                               
background check, their access to  the database is monitored, and                                                               
misuse of the data is  punishable by termination of employment or                                                               
criminal proceedings.   She added  that the same  standards exist                                                               
for  the bridge  through  DPS.   She  maintained  that as  people                                                               
started realizing the  importance of data, it  became criminal to                                                               
misuse data.   She concluded  that the possibility for  misuse of                                                               
data exists; the DMV attempts  to hire honest employees; and when                                                               
an employee uses  an electronic database, the  supervisor can see                                                               
who signed  in and what is  being viewed; with paper  files, that                                                               
is not possible.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
7:32:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TUCK removed his objection  to the motion to adopt                                                               
the proposed CS  for HB 74, Version  30-GH1781\J, Martin, 4/4/17,                                                               
as  the working  document.   There  being  no further  objection,                                                               
Version J was before the committee as a work draft.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
[HB 74 was held over.]                                                                                                          

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB 74 H STA Rep. Tuck Follow Up 4.3.17 FINAL.PDF HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74
HB074 2017.01.30 ACLU Testimony re House Bill 7.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74
HB074 2017.03.27 ACLU to House State Affairs Committee re Follow Up to Questions.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74
REAL ID Commissioner Questions corrected 3.23.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74 REAL ID verification systems.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74
HB 74 Letter to Commissioner Fisher.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74
HB-74-EFF-Oppose.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74
HB 74 Passport Process.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74
HB 74 DHS Waiver Letter and Enclosure 10.7.2016.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74
HB074 Draft Proposed CS ver J 4.5.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74
HB074 Alaska Right to Travel Identity Project Letter 4.5.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 5:30:00 PM
HB 74