Legislature(2003 - 2004)

01/13/2004 08:00 AM STA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
             HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                           
                        January 13, 2004                                                                                        
                           8:00 a.m.                                                                                            
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
Representative Bruce Weyhrauch, Chair                                                                                           
Representative Jim Holm, Vice Chair                                                                                             
Representative John Coghill                                                                                                     
Representative Paul Seaton                                                                                                      
Representative Bob Lynn                                                                                                         
Representative Ethan Berkowitz                                                                                                  
Representative Max Gruenberg                                                                                                    
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
HOUSE BILL NO. 40                                                                                                               
"An Act relating to issuance of a driver's license."                                                                            
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
HOUSE BILL NO. 304                                                                                                              
"An Act naming the Jack Coghill Bridge to the Interior."                                                                        
     - MOVED HB 304 OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                            
HOUSE BILL NO. 319                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the disposal of state land by lottery; and                                                                  
relating to the disposal, including sale or lease, of remote                                                                    
recreational cabin sites."                                                                                                      
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 3                                                                                                    
Proposing amendments to the Constitution of the State of Alaska                                                                 
relating to the Alaska permanent fund.                                                                                          
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
HOUSE BILL NO. 221                                                                                                              
"An Act  making it  a class  C felony to  knowingly make  a false                                                               
statement relating to citizenship  or residency on an application                                                               
for voter registration or reregistration."                                                                                      
     - BILL HEARING POSTPONED                                                                                                   
HOUSE BILL NO. 241                                                                                                              
"An Act  relating to optional exemptions  from municipal property                                                               
taxes on residential property."                                                                                                 
     - BILL HEARING POSTPONED                                                                                                   
HOUSE BILL NO. 297                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to wildfires and other natural disasters."                                                                     
     - BILL HEARING POSTPONED                                                                                                   
HOUSE BILL NO. 329                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to retirement  incentive programs for the public                                                               
employees'  retirement system,  the  judicial retirement  system,                                                               
and  the  teachers'  retirement system;  relating  to  separation                                                               
incentives  for certain  state employees;  and  providing for  an                                                               
effective date."                                                                                                                
     - BILL HEARING POSTPONED                                                                                                   
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                               
BILL: HB  40                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: REQUIREMENTS FOR DRIVER'S LICENSE                                                                                  
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) LYNN                                                                                              
01/21/03       (H)       PREFILE RELEASED (1/10/03)                                                                             
01/21/03       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
01/21/03       (H)       TRA, STA                                                                                               
04/10/03       (H)       TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              
04/10/03       (H)       -- Meeting Canceled --                                                                                 
04/15/03       (H)       TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              
04/15/03       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
04/15/03       (H)       MINUTE(TRA)                                                                                            
04/24/03       (H)       TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              
04/24/03       (H)       Moved CSHB 40(TRA) Out of Committee                                                                    
04/24/03       (H)       MINUTE(TRA)                                                                                            
04/25/03       (H)       TRA RPT CS(TRA) NT 2DP 3NR                                                                             
04/25/03       (H)       DP: FATE, MASEK; NR: OGG, KOHRING,                                                                     
04/25/03       (H)       HOLM                                                                                                   
05/07/03       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                             
05/07/03       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
05/07/03       (H)       MINUTE(STA)                                                                                            
05/14/03       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                             
05/14/03       (H)       Scheduled But Not Heard                                                                                
05/15/03       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                             
05/15/03       (H)       Scheduled But Not Heard                                                                                
01/13/04       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                             
BILL: HB 304                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: JACK COGHILL BRIDGE TO THE INTERIOR                                                                                
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) COGHILL                                                                                           
05/07/03       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
05/07/03       (H)       TRA, STA                                                                                               
05/12/03       (H)       TRA AT 5:30 PM CAPITOL 102                                                                             
05/12/03       (H)       Moved Out of Committee                                                                                 
05/12/03       (H)       MINUTE(TRA)                                                                                            
05/13/03       (H)       TRA RPT 5DP                                                                                            
05/13/03       (H)       DP: FATE, OGG, KOHRING, MASEK, HOLM                                                                    
01/13/04       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                             
BILL: HB 319                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: REMOTE REC.CABIN SITE SALES/LOTTERY SALE                                                                           
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) FATE                                                                                              
05/14/03       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
05/14/03       (H)       STA, RES, FIN                                                                                          
01/13/04       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                             
BILL: HJR  3                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: CONST. AM: PERMANENT FUND                                                                                          
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) CRAWFORD, CROFT                                                                                   
01/21/03       (H)       PREFILE RELEASED (1/10/03)                                                                             
01/21/03       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
01/21/03       (H)       STA, JUD, FIN                                                                                          
02/07/03       (H)       SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE INTRODUCED                                                                          
02/07/03       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/07/03       (H)       STA, JUD, FIN                                                                                          
01/13/04       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                             
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
DUANE BANNOCK, Director                                                                                                         
Division of Motor Vehicles (DMV)                                                                                                
Department of Administration (DOA)                                                                                              
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Answered questions  on behalf  of the  DMV                                                               
during the hearing on HB 40.                                                                                                    
ELLEN KRSNAK                                                                                                                    
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Testified  on  behalf  of Catholic  Social                                                               
Services (CSS) in opposition to HB 304.                                                                                         
JIM POUND, Staff                                                                                                                
to Representative Hugh Fate                                                                                                     
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION   STATEMENT:      Presented   HB  310   on   behalf   of                                                               
Representative Fate, sponsor.                                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE HARRY CRAWFORD                                                                                                   
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified as Co-sponsor of HJR 3.                                                                          
REPRESENTATIVE ERIC CROFT                                                                                                       
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified as Co-sponsor of HJR 3.                                                                          
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
TAPE 04-01, SIDE A                                                                                                            
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
CHAIR  BRUCE WEYHRAUCH  called the  House State  Affairs Standing                                                             
Committee meeting  to order at  8:00 a.m.   Representatives Holm,                                                               
Seaton, Lynn,  Coghill, Berkowitz, and Weyhrauch  were present at                                                               
the  call to  order.   Representative  Gruenberg  arrived as  the                                                               
meeting was in progress.                                                                                                        
HB  40-REQUIREMENTS FOR DRIVER'S LICENSE                                                                                      
Number 0200                                                                                                                     
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  announced that the  first order of  business was                                                               
HOUSE BILL  NO. 40, "An  Act relating  to issuance of  a driver's                                                               
Number 0380                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  explained that  HB  40  would mandate  that                                                               
Alaska may  not issue an  Alaska driver's license to  "anyone who                                                               
is  not  legally   present  in  the  United  States   and,  as  a                                                               
consequence, not legally present in Alaska."                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  said that [having]  a driver's license  is a                                                               
privilege, rather than  a right.  A state has  a right to mandate                                                               
its  own standards  and qualifications  for  a driver's  license,                                                               
such as  a satisfactory score on  a written test and  [passing] a                                                               
driving  test.   The  proposed legislation  would  merely add  an                                                               
additional qualification  that an  alien must  be legally  in the                                                               
United States to  obtain an Alaska driver's license.   Nothing in                                                               
[HB  40],  he  emphasized,  would  act  against  the  rights  and                                                               
privileges of  any legal alien in  Alaska.  He clarified  that HB                                                               
40 would  permit aliens with  a residence  in Alaska to  obtain a                                                               
driver's  license if  they are  in  possession of  a valid  green                                                               
card,  are  [in Alaska]  with  an  unexpired  visa, or  are  here                                                               
legally  under President  Bush's  newly  proposed legislation  on                                                               
foreign nationals residing in the United States.                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  noted  that  state  residency  is  a  legal                                                               
requirement for  anyone to  get an Alaska  driver's license.   He                                                               
stated that  it is  obvious that illegal  aliens cannot  be legal                                                               
residents of  any state, including  Alaska.  If  Alaska knowingly                                                               
or unknowingly  provides illegal  aliens with  driver's licenses,                                                               
the  state enables  false  appearance of  legal  residence to  an                                                               
illegal alien who is by  definition ineligible for a license and,                                                               
by definition, [is] a lawbreaker.   Representative Lynn asked his                                                               
fellow  committee members  not to  fall prey  to the  politically                                                               
correct  euphemism   of  calling  illegal   aliens  "undocumented                                                               
workers."   He added, "Sugar-coated  words don't  change reality.                                                               
Someone  is  either legally  present  in  the United  States,  or                                                               
they're not."                                                                                                                   
Number 0560                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  stated  that,   as  the  law  is  currently                                                               
structured  and  interpreted,  it  is  the  job  of  the  federal                                                               
government    to     enforce    national     immigration    laws.                                                               
Notwithstanding  that,  he  added  that it  is  well  within  the                                                               
purview of  the State of  Alaska to  determine who does  and does                                                               
not qualify for driver's licenses.                                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN said  homeland security is a  top priority of                                                               
the President  of the United States.   He stated his  belief that                                                               
it [is  also a top  priority] of the  governor of Alaska  and all                                                               
those in  the Alaska  State Legislature.   He  said, "We  live in                                                               
very dangerous times, and we believe  that HB 40 will help lessen                                                               
some of those dangers."  He  stated that a driver's license is an                                                               
essential tool  that can be  used by illegal aliens  to "solidify                                                               
their presence here  and move about freely."  He  added, "This is                                                               
a   clear  threat   to  our   safety   and  economic   security."                                                               
Representative  Lynn  stated  that   Alaska  must  not  become  a                                                               
loophole for terrorists.   He illustrated, "To be  blunt, we need                                                               
to  fix it  so  Osama  bin Laden  can't  get  an Alaska  driver's                                                               
license."   He said, "We want  Alaska to be a  state of security,                                                               
not a state of insecurity."   Representative Lynn indicated there                                                               
was a  letter of support  from the Alaska  assistant commissioner                                                               
of  homeland security  [included  in the  committee packet]  that                                                               
reads in part, "Your proposed House  Bill No. 40 would provide an                                                               
additional tool to improve the  security of Alaska."  He remarked                                                               
that it  is a sobering thought  that most of the  19 hijackers of                                                               
[the terrorist  attacks of September  11, 2001]  carried driver's                                                               
licenses from Virginia, Florida, or New Jersey.                                                                                 
Number 0692                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  stated that HB  40 would help  prevent voter                                                               
fraud.   He  said,  "An  illegal alien  with  an Alaska  driver's                                                               
license would  facilitate non citizens  of Alaska to  register to                                                               
vote under the  Motor Voter Act [the  National Voter Registration                                                               
Act of  1993]."  Favorable  action on HB  40, he said,  will help                                                               
protect the integrity of Alaska voter rolls.                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN turned  to  the subject  of identity  theft,                                                               
which he  said is becoming  an increasing problem.   The proposed                                                               
legislation  would  help address  the  many  dangers of  identity                                                               
theft.  He  said that state-issued driver's  licenses have become                                                               
the de facto primary identity document  in the United States.  In                                                               
fact, he added, driver's licenses  are so generally requested for                                                               
purposes   unrelated   to   driving  that   the   motor   vehicle                                                               
administration also issues identity cards for non-drivers.                                                                      
[Due  to technical  difficulty,  a  new tape  starts  here.   The                                                               
committee took an at-ease from 8:09 a.m. to 8:17 a.m.]                                                                          
TAPE 04-02, SIDE A                                                                                                            
8:17 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  moved  to adopt  the  proposed  committee                                                               
substitute (CS),  Version 23-LS0262\H,  as a  work draft.   There                                                               
being no objection, Version H was before the committee.                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  described  driver's  licenses  as  "breeder                                                               
documents"  that  provide access  to  many  other documents  that                                                               
facilitate  identity theft.   Driver's  licenses [are  used as  a                                                               
form  of identification]  by  law  enforcers, retailers,  lending                                                               
institutions, and  [airport security and personnel].   Currently,                                                               
he  noted,  once  a  person  gets a  driver's  license  or  state                                                               
identification card  in one state, that  card can be used  in any                                                               
other  state.    Furthermore,  that card  can  be  exchanged  for                                                               
another state's license or identity  card.  A license exchange is                                                               
faster and requires  much less documentation than  a newly issued                                                               
card,  which Representative  Lynn said  he thinks  is scary.   He                                                               
posited that every constituent is  a potential victim of identity                                                               
theft, and  HB 40 is "one  step toward protecting our  good names                                                               
and our good credit."                                                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN noted that,  in a newspaper article regarding                                                               
HB  40,  someone claimed  that  illegal  aliens will  be  driving                                                               
whether they are  licensed or not, and a license  would make them                                                               
safer drivers,  because they would  have to pass a  driving test.                                                               
He  asked, "Should  we then  issue licenses  to 10-year  olds, or                                                               
some  other obviously  unsuitable group,  merely because  some of                                                               
them  will be  driving  anyway?   Should  we legalize  marijuana,                                                               
because  maybe somebody  will be  smoking  pot anyway?   I  think                                                               
not."   The aforementioned person  also claimed that  the federal                                                               
government has sole authority over  immigration, which applies to                                                               
whom  a  state chooses  to  license  as  a driver.    Conversely,                                                               
Representative Lynn  emphasized that the  bill has nothing  to do                                                               
with immigration, but  "has only to do with who's  eligible for a                                                               
driver's  license,  period."     He  remarked  that  the  federal                                                               
government has  intruded a lot  into independent  states' rights,                                                               
but hopefully Alaska  can still decide who  gets his/her drivers'                                                               
license and who does not.                                                                                                       
8:20 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN noted  that  Governor Arnold  Schwarzenegger                                                               
disallowed driver's  licenses for  illegal aliens  in California.                                                               
He  said he  believes  that  as of  April  2003,  30 states  plus                                                               
Washington, D.C. required  a legal presence to  obtain a driver's                                                               
license.  He said that he  thinks more states have followed suit,                                                               
and he hopes that Alaska will join that list.                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN stated the following for the record:                                                                        
     I  believe  from  the  bottom of  my  heart  that  99.9                                                                    
     percent of all the illegal  aliens who come to Alaska -                                                                    
     or anywhere  else in  the United States  - ...  come to                                                                    
     Alaska to work, ... to  better their lives, and they're                                                                    
     decent human  beings who broke  immigration law  in the                                                                    
     popular  theory  that  the end  somehow  justifies  the                                                                    
     means.   Honestly,  who among  us here  has not  at one                                                                    
     time or another in our  lives used that theory that the                                                                    
     end justifies the means.                                                                                                   
     I  do  believe  in  welcoming the  stranger  among  us.                                                                    
     Every  one ...  of our  ancestors was  a stranger  in a                                                                    
     strange land at  one time or another.   I believe there                                                                    
     should be  no unjust  restriction of the  natural right                                                                    
     of individual persons to move  freely, within their own                                                                    
     nation,  or from  one  nation to  another,  so long  as                                                                    
     reasonable rules  are followed.   In other  words, when                                                                    
     you're  under Caesar,  what  is  Caesar's, when  you're                                                                    
     under God, what is God's.                                                                                                  
     I also believe that the State  of Alaska has a right to                                                                    
     render  the qualifications  for driver's  licenses, and                                                                    
     [becoming]  a  legal  resident  of  the  United  States                                                                    
     should be one of those qualifications rendered.                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN summarized his  previously stated points.  He                                                               
reemphasized that nothing  in HB 40 would act  against the rights                                                               
of any  legal alien  in Alaska.   He  asked his  fellow committee                                                               
members for a favorable vote on HB 40.                                                                                          
8:22 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked how  many people would be effected                                                               
by HB 40.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN answered  that it  would effect  everyone in                                                               
Alaska,  and  he gave  examples.    In  response to  a  follow-up                                                               
question by  Representative Berkowitz and clarification  by Chair                                                               
Weyhrauch,  he said  he does  not  know how  many illegal  aliens                                                               
there  are in  Alaska  and he  ventures that  no  one else  knows                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ said  that  Representative Lynn  talked                                                               
about the need for an honest voter  roll, and he asked him in how                                                               
many instances he has been  able to discover that immigrants have                                                               
voted improperly.                                                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  answered  that  he doesn't  know  how  many                                                               
people have voted illegally, and  he stated that he suspects that                                                               
none of the other 59 members of the legislature do either.                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said:                                                                                                  
     The point is  that you asserted something as  a fact to                                                                    
     this committee.  You're presenting  information.  And I                                                                    
     just wanted  to know what  the fact was, and  if you're                                                                    
     unable  to  tell us,  you're,  in  essence, saying  you                                                                    
     don't know.                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  said he  does  not  know how  many  illegal                                                               
aliens there are in Alaska.                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ  noted  that  Representative  Lynn  had                                                               
previously referenced  what had gone  on in California.   He said                                                               
he  had  the   California  bill  in  front  of  him.     He  told                                                               
Representative  Lynn, "The  immigrants  that you  would sweep  up                                                               
with  your  proposed  piece  of  legislation  is  a  far  broader                                                               
category then  is swept  up in the  California legislation."   He                                                               
noted that  there is a list  of a dozen types  of immigrants that                                                               
may not  have achieved  green card  [status] that  are acceptable                                                               
under the  California law.   He asked if Representative  Lynn was                                                               
aware of that.                                                                                                                  
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN stated  that he does not think  that the term                                                               
"swept  up"  is  appropriate.    He said  that  this  is  not  an                                                               
immigration  raid, but  rather proposed  legislation establishing                                                               
qualifications for driver's licenses.                                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ  noted that  HB 40 would  include anyone                                                               
who is  not a  citizen of the  United States or  is not  an alien                                                               
lawfully  admitted  into  the  United  States.    The  California                                                               
legislation is  far more specific,  citing a number  of different                                                               
categories,  including petitions  for alien  relatives, immigrant                                                               
petitions  for  alien  workers,   immigrant  petitions  by  alien                                                               
entrepreneurs,  applications  for  asylum,  and  applications  to                                                               
adjust status  from temporary to  permanent residence.   He asked                                                               
Representative Lynn if he had looked at the California bill.                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN answered no.                                                                                                
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH   asked  Representative  Lynn  if   there  is  a                                                               
classification  of  an  alien  coming into  the  country  who  is                                                               
awaiting legal  status, who  would be  categorized as  an illegal                                                               
alien until that legal status  had been obtained.  He illustrated                                                               
this idea by noting that there  are a great number of people from                                                               
Tonga  or  the Philippines  who  have  relatives and  friends  in                                                               
Alaska, and  who want  to work in  fish processing,  for example.                                                               
He  stated,  "They're  here innocently,  but  they're  also  here                                                               
because they  love America, they want  to work hard, they  want a                                                               
job, they want  to be unfettered by the constraints  in their own                                                               
country where they don't have the  opportunity we have here."  He                                                               
asked if those  people would fall into a status  of being illegal                                                               
and not being  able to get a driver's license,  and if they would                                                               
be stigmatized by the proposed legislation.                                                                                     
8:27 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN answered,  "You're  either  here legally  or                                                               
you're not  here legally."  He  opined that if a  person was here                                                               
legally, there wouldn't  be a problem.  For  example, he offered,                                                               
many aliens  are in the United  States and have "a  perfect right                                                               
to be here."                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ  asked Representative  Lynn if  he would                                                               
consider  someone  who  has  come  into  the  United  States  and                                                               
[submitted] an  asylum petition as  being lawfully  or unlawfully                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  answered that  he  thinks  as long  as  the                                                               
person had  gone through  the paperwork [he  would be  legally in                                                               
the country].                                                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ  clarified  that   the  person  in  his                                                               
example  would not  have gone  through the  paperwork, but  would                                                               
only just have submitted the petition.                                                                                          
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  offered  his  belief  that  a  petition  is                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ clarified as follows:                                                                                  
     My question is:   Someone escapes some  kind of tyranny                                                                    
     - they've  fought, for example,  for the  United States                                                                    
     in  a  foreign land.    They  come over  ...  America's                                                                    
     borders without proper documentation.   Then they're in                                                                    
     the United  States - they  make an  asylum application.                                                                    
     Would  you  consider  that   they  have  been  lawfully                                                                    
     admitted into the United States, or not?                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  responded,  "If   they  have  executed  the                                                               
paperwork that's  required by  the United  States, or  whoever is                                                               
responsible for that, that would not be a problem, to me."                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ  asked Representative Lynn if  he thinks                                                               
the people  at the DMV would  know all the ways  that people have                                                               
been  or could  be admitted  into the  United States,  and if  he                                                               
feels that subsequent  training might be necessary,  in order for                                                               
them to  understand the full range  of ways that people  can gain                                                               
lawful admissions into  the country after those  people have come                                                               
in to the country, perhaps without documentation.                                                                               
8:29 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  surmised that if any  education is required,                                                               
it  should probably  be  provided; however,  he  noted that  that                                                               
[question] is  not in  his area of  expertise and  suggested that                                                               
the representative available from the  DMV would be better suited                                                               
to answer that question.                                                                                                        
8:30 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  asked if  the proposed  legislation would                                                               
make it  unlawful to issue a  driver's license to anybody  who is                                                               
not a citizen of the United States.                                                                                             
8:32 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  explained that,  under HB 40,  a person                                                               
who is  an alien  legally admitted into  the United  States could                                                               
[be issued a driver's license].                                                                                                 
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  mentioned a  case in  which a  man from                                                               
North  Korea, named  Daiil Park,  found his  way over  the border                                                               
into  South  Korea, went  to  Alaska,  attended law  school,  and                                                               
passed the bar.   However, the bar refused to  admit him, because                                                               
he did  not have the  necessary paperwork,  "since he was  in the                                                               
United  States  getting political  asylum  and  had nothing  from                                                               
North Korea."   Representative Gruenberg  told the  committee the                                                               
man's case  was taken to the  [Alaska] Supreme Court.   That body                                                               
said  the case  was unconstitutional.   Representative  Gruenberg                                                               
said that the  man had a distinguished career  and died recently.                                                               
He  added that  he thinks  this case  should be  looked at  to be                                                               
certain  that the  same problem  does not  surface regarding  the                                                               
proposed legislation.                                                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ stated  that his focus is on  who is not                                                               
a citizen  of the  United States.   He asked  Representative Lynn                                                               
what documents prove American Citizenship.                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN suggested a passport.                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ asked  what people  would do  who don't                                                               
have a passport.                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   LYNN  answered   [they   could   use]  a   birth                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ  asked how a  person who doesn't  have a                                                               
birth  certificate or  an  American citizen  who  is born  abroad                                                               
would show [proof of citizenship].                                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  suggested that  those questions  be deferred                                                               
to the DMV.                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ stated  that  HB  40 is  Representative                                                               
Lynn's bill,  and he opined  that it could  pose a hardship  on a                                                               
great number  of American  citizens.  He  explained that  he just                                                               
wants to know  if Representative Lynn has done  any research into                                                               
that particular aspect of proof of citizenship.                                                                                 
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  responded that HB 40  is a simple bill.   He                                                               
told  Representative  Berkowitz that  he  thinks  he is  "playing                                                               
games here, trying to obfuscate the  simplicity of the bill."  He                                                               
explained that the simplicity of the  bill is that a person needs                                                               
to be  an American citizen or  be legally admitted to  the United                                                               
States  [in  order   to  legally  hold  a   driver's  license  or                                                               
identification].   He  added that  whatever qualifications  there                                                               
are for American citizenship, or  to legally remain in the United                                                               
States, would certainly apply [to this bill].                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ told  Representative  Lynn  that it  is                                                               
inappropriate for  him to  apply any  motive to  his [questions].                                                               
He remarked  that [the proposed  legislation] might be  simple in                                                               
language, but it could be complex  in execution.  He continued as                                                               
     That's  why,   when  I  asked   about  how   you  prove                                                                    
     citizenship  of the  United States,  it's an  important                                                                    
     issue, because somebody's  going to be able  to go into                                                                    
     the DMV one day and get  a driver's license, and I want                                                                    
     to  know what  requirements are  in front  of them.   I                                                                    
     want to  know what  Alaskans will have  to do  - people                                                                    
     who  are born  in  the state,  perhaps  never left  the                                                                    
     state  - what  they're  going  to have  to  do to  show                                                                    
     citizenship.   And if you  can't answer that,  that can                                                                    
     impose a  serious hardship on  people who  are lawfully                                                                    
     here, who  happen to be American  citizens, but somehow                                                                    
     are caught up in the requirements of this bill.                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  said his "own  theory" is that he  would use                                                               
his  birth certificate,  his passport,  and perhaps  his military                                                               
identification  [as proof  of citizenship].    He acknowledged  a                                                               
point made by  Representative Berkowitz that a person  could be a                                                               
non-citizen and be a member of the military.                                                                                    
8:38 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON  asked   how   the  provision   regarding                                                               
preventing illegal  aliens from  getting driver's  licenses would                                                               
prevent identity theft.                                                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  repeated  that  a  driver's  license  is  a                                                               
breeder document.  He opined that  it is used more than it should                                                               
be  as a  de  facto national  identification card.    He gave  an                                                               
example of a  people being asked to show  their driver's licenses                                                               
upon trying to cash checks.  He  said, "If you aren't who you say                                                               
you are  -- your driver's  license is  what is used  to establish                                                               
identity for all of us."                                                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON clarified  that he is trying  to figure out                                                               
how somebody  getting a driver's license  as identification would                                                               
cause identity  theft.  He  said, "I mean, we've  identified that                                                               
person  as  that  person,  not   as  someone  else."    He  asked                                                               
Representative Lynn if he understood his quandary.                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  answered, "Not totally, sir."   He explained                                                               
that if a  person has a driver's license, he/she  can do anything                                                               
with it, for example, board airplanes.                                                                                          
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON rephrased his question as follows:                                                                        
     I think the postulate here  is, somehow, me getting the                                                                    
     driver's license  through DMV  allows me to  steal your                                                                    
     identity.   And I don't  understand how that works.   I                                                                    
     don't understand how me getting  a driver's license ...                                                                    
     with  my  picture  on  it  and  everything  else,  then                                                                    
     putting me in the state system...                                                                                          
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN interjected the following:                                                                                  
     You have an illegal person  getting a license when they                                                                    
     should not  get a  license.  They're  law-breakers from                                                                    
     the get-go, and they have this license.  Now they can                                                                      
     do anything they want to with it.                                                                                          
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON   said  he   understands  some   of  where                                                               
Representative Lynn is  coming from.  He said that  a document he                                                               
has  would identify  him  as  himself; it  wouldn't  give him  an                                                               
avenue to  steal [Representative  Lynn's] identity,  for example.                                                               
He stated his  concern that [HB 40] not be  "casting a wider net"                                                               
than is actually [needed].                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN noted  that a  license procured  in [Alaska]                                                               
could be exchanged in another state.                                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  asked how  exchanging his  Alaska driver's                                                               
license  for  a  Washington  license would  be  stealing  someone                                                               
else's identity.   He said he understands that  identity theft is                                                               
a  real  problem; however,  he  said  he doesn't  understand  how                                                               
having a  driver's license issued  with his picture on  it steals                                                               
another person's identity.                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN said  he is  not certain  how to  respond to                                                               
that.   He said, "Either  you're the person  you say you  are, or                                                               
... you're not.  You ... should  be a legal person to get a legal                                                               
driver's license.  It's beyond  me how to respond specifically to                                                               
your question."                                                                                                                 
8:42 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ  asked  Representative Lynn  if  he  is                                                               
aware  that  there are  already  criminal  penalties for  putting                                                               
false information on a driver's license application.                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN answered yes.                                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked if there  is a higher incidence of                                                               
immigrants  using false  names  than  non-immigrants using  false                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN said he does not know.                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ  asked, "So,  what's the basis  for your                                                               
conclusion  that identity  theft is  a  problem, as  a result  of                                                               
driver's license applications from immigrants?"                                                                                 
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN responded as follows:                                                                                       
     If you  have a false document  to begin with -  if it's                                                                    
     based upon being in this  country - you shouldn't be in                                                                    
     the  country  to begin  with.    That's a  whole  other                                                                    
     But  if you  are in  this country,  you should  be here                                                                    
     legally.   And  [if] you  get a  driver's license,  you                                                                    
     need  to be  the  person that  you say  you  are.   You                                                                    
     should be here under the laws  of this country.  And if                                                                    
     you can't  abide by laws  (indisc.) to Alaska,  I don't                                                                    
     know how  you expect to  abide by any driving  laws, or                                                                    
     anything else.                                                                                                             
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ told  Representative Lynn  that he  had                                                               
just  imputed illegality  to someone  who has  come over  [to the                                                               
United  States]   without  documentation.    He   explained  that                                                               
Representative Lynn had said that  those folks who come into [the                                                               
United  States] without  proper documentation  are more  inclined                                                               
towards  identity theft  and a  whole host  of other  crimes that                                                               
involve   falsification  of   information  on   driver's  license                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  rebutted that  he does  not believe  that he                                                               
had said  that any person  who comes  to this country  legally or                                                               
illegally   is  more   inclined  toward   being  a   bad  person.                                                               
Furthermore, he  recalled that he  had said that 99.9  percent of                                                               
[immigrants]  are  good, hard-working  people  who  came [to  the                                                               
United  States]  under the  theory  that  the end  justifies  the                                                               
means.   He added, "Some  of these  people are not  good people."                                                               
He explained that some people come  to wreak terror on the United                                                               
States;  however,  those people  do  not  make up  the  majority.                                                               
Representative Lynn  pointed out that  laws are usually  not made                                                               
for  the majority,  but rather  "for the  exception."   He listed                                                               
laws against murder and rape, for example.                                                                                      
8:45 a.m.                                                                                                                       
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH,   regarding  a   comment  previously   made  by                                                               
Representative Lynn  that illegal  aliens are  law-breakers, said                                                               
he thinks that many people are  in [the United States] because of                                                               
terrorism  in their  own countries,  and they  are in  the states                                                               
because  of the  freedom that  is available  here.   He mentioned                                                               
[the  terrorist  attacks  of  September 11,  2001]  and  said  he                                                               
thought that the terrorism events is "what's lurking here."                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN said that is one  of the [issues] that he had                                                               
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH offered  his understanding  that the  terrorists                                                               
involved in those attacks were all in the United States legally.                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN noted,  "Some of  these people  had driver's                                                               
licenses when they  should not have had driver's  licenses.  Some                                                               
of [them] were here, I believe, ... under expired visas."                                                                       
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH added,  "Some were  actually issued  visas after                                                               
they were dead."                                                                                                                
8:46 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL asked  if  it  was Representative  Lynn's                                                               
intent that anyone  applying for driver's licenses  would bring a                                                               
birth  certificate in,  while  anyone who  is  not a  naturalized                                                               
citizen would  bring in whatever immigration  papers necessary to                                                               
the DMV.                                                                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  stated that  his  intent  is that  the  DMV                                                               
establish what it  needs to issue or not issue  a license, "which                                                               
could include the various things that you mention."                                                                             
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  said, "I  was  just  wondering, in  your                                                               
research, if that was how you landed on it."                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  offered his  understanding that the  DMV has                                                               
already  made some  changes.   He specified  that [the  documents                                                               
that could  be required by the  DMV in order to  issue a license]                                                               
would include that  which would show that a person  is who he/she                                                               
claims  to be  and is  in the  country legally.   He  offered the                                                               
example of his  Canadian son-in-law who holds a green  card and a                                                               
California driver's license.                                                                                                    
8:47 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG returned  to  the previously  mentioned                                                               
subject regarding the man from  Korea and told the committee that                                                               
the  name of  the case  is Application  of Park.   He  handed out                                                             
copies of  it [available in the  committee packet].  He  quoted a                                                               
line  from the  case, which  read, "There  are better  tests than                                                               
alienage to determine these matters."                                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  stated  that  the ability  to  get  an                                                               
identification card and  the ability to drive  are fundamental to                                                               
earning a  livelihood, being mobile, raising  a family, attending                                                               
school, and receiving medical care.                                                                                             
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said  it seems to him  that the argument                                                               
that  Representative Lynn  is making  is that  "these people"  in                                                               
some manner are potentially a threat.   He stated, "In some ways,                                                               
what  Representative Seaton  was saying  troubles me  also."   He                                                               
said  a  person's  having  a  green  card  is  in  some  cases  a                                                               
relationship to  whether that  person is a  threat, but  in other                                                               
cases  is  of little  relationship  [to  that possibility].    He                                                               
opined that  a person can be  much more of a  threat if convicted                                                               
of heinous  driving offenses,  for example,  than by  coming over                                                               
the border  illegally or not  being able  to get a  [green] card.                                                               
He said he would  like to see some way of  dealing with the issue                                                               
of the  threat by "looking  at something  that has a  little more                                                               
direct ... evidence  of the fact of whether they're  a threat, if                                                               
that's the basis of this bill."   He asked Representative Lynn if                                                               
he was misreading his intent.                                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN questioned whether  there can be a comparison                                                               
between  getting a  license to  practice law  and getting  one to                                                               
drive a vehicle.  He added, "You know, apples and apples here."                                                                 
REPRESENTATIVE   GRUENBERG,  in   response  to   a  question   by                                                               
Representative Lynn,  noted that the  citation of the  Parks case                                                               
took place in 1971.                                                                                                             
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN said  he doesn't want to  make comments about                                                               
[Alaska's] court  system; however, he  added, "Suffice it  to say                                                               
that all of their decisions have not been wise."                                                                                
8:50 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked Representative  Lynn if, under HB 40,                                                               
people would have to show  proof of citizenship before exchanging                                                               
[one state's  driver's license for  another].  He  clarified that                                                               
he is  not concerned about  illegal aliens in this  question, but                                                               
wants to  know how the  bill would  effect every person  who goes                                                               
into the  DMV to exchange  a driver's  license.  He  continued as                                                               
     Every one  of us is  going to  have to prove  this, not                                                                    
     just the  aliens - every one  of us that goes  in.  And                                                                    
     so, we  have a  person that  comes up  here that  has a                                                                    
     driver's  license,  but  it's  not from  a  state  that                                                                    
     requires  proof of  citizenship; therefore,  under your                                                                    
     bill,  as  I  understand  it,  he  can't  exchange  his                                                                    
     driver's license and get an Alaska driver's license.                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  responded that  he thinks anybody  who comes                                                               
"up here"  for a  driver's license  should be  able to  show that                                                               
they are  either a United States  citizen or are here  as a legal                                                               
8:52 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  HOLM  asked how  reciprocity  would  work if  the                                                               
requirements in  California are different  than those  in Alaska,                                                               
for example.                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  answered that  some people  have recommended                                                               
against reciprocity "for those very reasons."                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE  HOLM pointed  out  that  Representative Lynn  had                                                               
previously mentioned that several  perpetrators of [the terrorist                                                               
attacks of September 11, 2001]  held legal driver's licenses.  He                                                               
said  because  of  that  they  also  had  legal  (indisc.).    He                                                               
recommended that the issue of reciprocity be addressed.                                                                         
8:53 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  noted that Section  2 of the  bill also                                                               
addresses the  renewal of licenses.   He said, for  example, that                                                               
under HB 40, a  person who has lived in the  Alaska Bush for many                                                               
years and  already has  a driver's license,  but for  some reason                                                               
doesn't have a  birth certificate or other  proof of citizenship,                                                               
would not be able to renew his/her license.                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  said he supposes  that person would  have an                                                               
original application on file with the DMV.                                                                                      
TAPE 04-02, SIDE B                                                                                                            
8:56 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  said  he  thinks  that  [the  original                                                               
application]  would  not be  enough,  because  under HB  40,  the                                                               
person would  have to  prove that  he/she is a  citizen or  has a                                                               
green card [in  order to renew a driver's license].   In response                                                               
to  a comment  by Representative  Lynn, Representative  Gruenberg                                                               
pointed to  page 1, line  10, which  reads "nor renew",  which he                                                               
explained is where the bill stipulates this requirement.                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN, in response  to a question by Representative                                                               
Coghill,  reiterated  that, as  of  April  2003, 30  states  have                                                               
"essentially the same bill."                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE   COGHILL  asked   if   Representative  Lynn   has                                                               
researched how those states have  addressed the proof of identity                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  stated  that   he  believes  there  may  be                                                               
information in  the committee packet regarding  that; however, he                                                               
told Representative  Coghill that  he is  not prepared  to answer                                                               
that question directly.                                                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL suggested  that  [the issue  of proof  of                                                               
identity upon  renewal of  a driver's license]  is an  issue that                                                               
the committee  should address  before moving the  bill.   He also                                                               
commented that  the expiration dates  of licenses or  green cards                                                               
may not exactly  be in synch, and he said  he would be interested                                                               
to see how the other states worked out that problem.                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  noted  that  some students  in  the  United                                                               
States are here with a student  visa, and the expiration of their                                                               
driver's licenses extend beyond the  visa period.  He stated that                                                               
this  is  a potential  problem.    He  said he  had  contemplated                                                               
putting "that" in  the bill; however, he did not  want to put too                                                               
much into the  same bill.  He conceded that  that might have been                                                               
an error on his part.                                                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL suggested  that this may be  a subject for                                                               
an amendment to the bill.                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN said,  "If we  were to  amend it  along that                                                               
line, it would be a friendly amendment as far as I'm concerned."                                                                
8:58 a.m.                                                                                                                       
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH suggested  to Representative  Gruenberg that  it                                                               
may be worthwhile to ask  Legislative Legal and Research Services                                                               
to address the issue.                                                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG opined that HB  40 should be referred to                                                               
the House Judiciary Standing Committee.                                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  noted  that an  Alaska  driver's  license                                                               
currently  does not  prove citizenship;  therefore, according  to                                                               
the bill's stipulations for renewal,  every person in Alaska will                                                               
have to  go down to  the DMV  to prove United  States citizenship                                                               
before being allowed  to renew a current  Alaska driver's license                                                               
[or identity card].                                                                                                             
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  opined  that   security  and  safety  would                                                               
probably increase if that were done.                                                                                            
8:59 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG asked,  "If you  could show  proof that                                                               
you're  a citizen  by  showing you  were born  in  the U.S.,  why                                                               
couldn't people just forge a birth certificate?"                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  suggested that may  be an issue  for another                                                               
9:00 a.m.                                                                                                                       
DUANE  BANNOCK,  Director,  Division  of  Motor  Vehicles  (DMV),                                                               
Department of  Administration (DOA),  told the committee  that he                                                               
was available to  answer questions regarding HB 40.   In response                                                               
to a question by Chair  Weyhrauch regarding the recent dynamic of                                                               
the DMV offices, he informed the  committee that the DMV closed a                                                               
total of two offices  - one in Anchorage and one  in Juneau - and                                                               
reassigned the  scheduled operating  hours of several  very small                                                               
offices into less  hours, but including evenings  and weekends to                                                               
allow for greater accessibility.                                                                                                
MR. BANNOCK stated that the DMV  supported the bill last year and                                                               
will support it again [currently].                                                                                              
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH pointed  to two  fiscal notes  in the  committee                                                               
packet - one  by the Department of Law and  one by the Department                                                               
of Administration.                                                                                                              
MR.  BANNOCK  confirmed  that  he  prepared  the  [Department  of                                                               
Administration's]   fiscal  note,   which  reflects   Version  H,                                                               
currently before the committee.                                                                                                 
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  noted that according  to the testimony  that has                                                               
been heard on  the bill, there are a couple  of things that would                                                               
affect the  DMV.  First, he  noted, the DMV would  establish what                                                               
it needs to issue a license.   He asked Mr. Bannock if his fiscal                                                               
note  anticipates the  promulgation of  regulations to  establish                                                               
what the DMV needs for its staff in order to issue licenses.                                                                    
MR. BANNOCK  answered yes.   In response to a  follow-up question                                                               
by Chair Weyhrauch,  he stated that the DMV has  not been able to                                                               
identify any  fiscal impact.   He said  that, currently,  the DMV                                                               
goes through  training specific  to identification  of documents,                                                               
and [recognizing both] fraudulent  and acceptable documents.  The                                                               
training  is  done through  a  national  organization called  the                                                               
American  Association of  Motor  Vehicle Administrators  (AAMVA).                                                               
One person  from the  DMV is sent  at least once  a year  to take                                                               
trainer  courses,  and  "a  large chunk  of  that  [training]  is                                                               
dedicated to this particular issue."                                                                                            
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH asked  Mr. Bannock  if the  training of  the DMV                                                               
personnel  on   finding  ways  to   prove  citizenship   is  also                                                               
incorporated in his fiscal note.                                                                                                
MR. BANNOCK  responded that  he thinks  it would  be safe  to say                                                               
that that's  ongoing training.   He  explained that  the training                                                               
is, therefore, not being reinvented.                                                                                            
9:04 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG asked  if the  DMV would  be making  an                                                               
independent  determination of  citizenship, or  whether it  would                                                               
"rely on the good will and the honesty of the applicant."                                                                       
MR.  BANNOCK told  Representative  Gruenberg  that his  frontline                                                               
counter staff  are the  recipients of  the DMV's  direct training                                                               
regarding documents;  therefore, the applicant would  bring proof                                                               
of said requirements  to that staff.  He revealed  that there are                                                               
times when a supervisor or even  the registrar may be summoned to                                                               
make a verification.                                                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked  if an "independent determination"                                                               
would be  made, or if the  DMV would "rely simply  on the eyeball                                                               
examination of the document."                                                                                                   
MR. BANNOCK answered sometimes both.   In response to a follow-up                                                               
question  by Representative  Gruenberg, he  confirmed that  there                                                               
will not be a procedure  requiring "an independent examination of                                                               
that fact."  He gave an example as follows:                                                                                     
     If I  brought in  my birth  certificate, then  my front                                                                    
     counter  staff  would  know  exactly  what  that  birth                                                                    
     certificate  looks like,  understand that  it's a  real                                                                    
     birth certificate, and issue based on that document.                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  asked what  procedures [the  DMV] would                                                               
take to protect against counterfeiting.                                                                                         
MR. BANNOCK reiterated  that the staff attends  training at least                                                               
on an  annual basis on  fraudulent documents.   In response  to a                                                               
question by Representative Gruenberg as  to whether there will be                                                               
an appeal process, he said all  actions of the DMV are subject to                                                               
a hearing.                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  explained  that he  is  examining  Mr.                                                               
Bannock's zero fiscal note.  He  asked him if he has checked with                                                               
other states to  find out what percentage  of rejected applicants                                                               
are appealed and what the cost  is for these states on an ongoing                                                               
MR. BANNOCK answered he has not checked.                                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked Mr. Bannock  if he thought it wise                                                               
to do so before standing by a zero fiscal note.                                                                                 
MR. BANNOCK  responded that  he doesn't know  how to  answer that                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG requested  through the  chair that  the                                                               
DMV provide a written answer to that question.                                                                                  
MR. BANNOCK agreed to do that.                                                                                                  
9:10 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE   BERKOWITZ  asked   if  there   is  an   implicit                                                               
understanding that there  are a certain number of  people who are                                                               
now  receiving  driver's licenses,  who  would  not receive  them                                                               
under HB 40.                                                                                                                    
MR. BANNOCK answered that he thinks that is a fair assessment.                                                                  
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ offered  his  understanding that  those                                                               
individuals  would  be  paying   license  application  fees,  and                                                               
perhaps other fees  associated with getting a license.   He asked                                                               
if that is reflected  in the zero fiscal note.   He said it seems                                                               
to  him that  if fewer  people are  getting licenses,  then there                                                               
would be a loss of revenue to the state.                                                                                        
MR. BANNOCK  answered that  that is not  reflected in  the fiscal                                                               
note.  In response to  a request by Representative Berkowitz that                                                               
that information be provided in  the course of doing the research                                                               
requested by  Representative Gruenberg,  he stated that  it would                                                               
be very  difficult to assume  with any scientific  certainty what                                                               
that number may or may not be today.                                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ  opined that  there is a  big difference                                                               
between assigning a zero fiscal  note and an indeterminate fiscal                                                               
note.  He stated that there is a fiscal impact to [HB 40].                                                                      
CHAIR   WEYHRAUCH  asked   Mr.  Bannock   to  take   a  look   at                                                               
[Representative Berkowitz' request].                                                                                            
9:14 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON   reiterated  his  understanding   of  the                                                               
stipulations for  renewal of driver's  licenses, included  in the                                                               
bill.   He stated his  concern is in  regard to those  people who                                                               
may not  have access  to a  birth certificate,  for example.   He                                                               
questioned what  the impact may be  if those people do  not renew                                                               
their licenses.                                                                                                                 
MR. BANNOCK  told Representative  Seaton that  he is  100 percent                                                               
correct;  if HB  40  passes as  written, then  the  DMV will  not                                                               
automatically renew people's driver's licenses  as it has done in                                                               
the past.  However, in less  than 60 days [from bill passage] the                                                               
DMV  would begin  an  entirely new  process  of issuing  driver's                                                               
licenses,  and it  would behoove  the division  to get  people to                                                               
come in  to its station to  apply for what is  called the digital                                                               
driver's license, he said.   Upon reissuing that digital driver's                                                               
license  and upon  verification that  the DMV  has any  necessary                                                               
documents, that driver's license will  then be assigned, "Okay to                                                               
renew."   He said, "At  this very  minute, the division  does not                                                               
know if  I am a  legal citizen or not,  ... based on  my driver's                                                               
license."   Mr. Bannock revealed  that one  of his goals  in less                                                               
than 10 full years is to get digital licenses out on the market.                                                                
9:17 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ  asked Mr.  Bannock if taking  more time                                                               
simply  to  renew  someone's license  and  retaining  information                                                               
about citizenship would impact the zero fiscal note.                                                                            
MR. BANNOCK replied that he does not think it would.                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ said,  "In other  words, it's  going to                                                               
take  more time,  costing more  labor, and  you're going  to have                                                               
more storage,  and you're going  to be able  to do it  for free?"                                                               
To clarify,  he illustrated that it  would take more work  on the                                                               
part of the DMV to check for  proof of citizenship, as well as to                                                               
keep the records  produced for that proof.  He  said, "Unless the                                                               
good folks at the DMV are doing  their work for free, it seems to                                                               
me there's going to be a cost involved here."                                                                                   
MR. BANNOCK  submitted to Representative  Berkowitz that  most of                                                               
what he  had just described is  currently being done by  the DMV.                                                               
For example,  he noted that  people with licenses greater  than 5                                                               
years old probably have a sticker  on the back of those licenses.                                                               
The people sent  in $15 each, and the DMV  mailed the stickers to                                                               
them.    He  noted  that  that  entire  process  is  disappearing                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ  indicated  that there  would  be  more                                                               
work.   He  said,  "When people  are working  they've  got to  be                                                               
charging something for it."                                                                                                     
9:20 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL stated  that he  appreciates the  line of                                                               
questioning; however, he suggested  that the answers being sought                                                               
will  come  forth  through  the  information  the  committee  has                                                               
already requested from the DMV.                                                                                                 
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  announced that  the committee  would hold  HB 40                                                               
until later in the meeting.                                                                                                     
HB 304-JACK COGHILL BRIDGE TO THE INTERIOR                                                                                    
9:22 a.m.                                                                                                                       
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  announced that  the next  order of  business was                                                               
HOUSE BILL  NO. 304, "An  Act naming  the Jack Coghill  Bridge to                                                               
the Interior."                                                                                                                  
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHN   COGHILL,  Alaska  State   Legislature,  as                                                               
sponsor of HB 304, prefaced his  remarks by stating his intent is                                                               
to  honor his  father and  he  means no  self-aggrandizing.   The                                                               
purpose of the  bill, he explained, is simply to  name the bridge                                                               
over  the Nenana  River at  Rex the  Jack Coghill  Bridge to  the                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL revealed  that the  story behind  this is                                                               
that  when  the  Parks  Highway was  being  surveyed  to  connect                                                               
Anchorage  and  Fairbanks,  Jack  Coghill  got  an  appropriation                                                               
through the legislature that actually  preceded the money for the                                                               
highway;  therefore, the  bridge  was actually  built before  the                                                               
highway got  to it.   He said  his father "took  a little  bit of                                                               
ribbing" as the author to "the bridge to nowhere."                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  noted that this  year his father  will be                                                               
one  of the  oldest members  of the  Alaska State  Constitutional                                                               
Convention, he was in the  territorial legislature, and he served                                                               
as lieutenant governor.  He said  he knows that naming things for                                                               
people is  generally done after  they die; however,  he explained                                                               
that his  son, Joshua,  who heard  the story  of the  bridge from                                                               
someone in Healy, asked him  to author this piece of legislation.                                                               
Representative Coghill  mentioned spending  time with  his father                                                               
after his  mother, Frances, died  a couple  of years ago,  and he                                                               
said  he has  come to  think that  [naming the  bridge after  his                                                               
father] is  an appropriate thing to  do.  He said  he thinks this                                                               
will honor  Alaska, generally,  as well as  those who  cross that                                                               
bridge who know his father personally.                                                                                          
9:24 a.m.                                                                                                                       
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH  suggested  that   the  bridge  be  named  after                                                               
Representative Coghill's father and mother.                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  said  he  would not  want  to  do  that,                                                               
because  his mother  already has  a  foundation in  her name  for                                                               
children who  have speech impediments,  which was  something that                                                               
was "part  of her  heart" and probably  more appropriate.   Since                                                               
the  bridge is  a legislative  matter  dating back  to the  early                                                               
1960s, he  said he  thinks it  appropriate to  name it  after his                                                               
9:26 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved to report  HB 304 out of committee                                                               
with individual recommendations and  the accompanying zero fiscal                                                               
note.   There being  no objection,  HB 304 was  moved out  of the                                                               
House State Affairs Standing Committee.                                                                                         
HB  40-REQUIREMENTS FOR DRIVER'S LICENSE                                                                                      
9:27 a.m.                                                                                                                       
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH announced  that  the committee  would return  to                                                               
HOUSE BILL  NO. 40, "An  Act relating  to issuance of  a driver's                                                               
ELLEN KRSNAK,  testifying on behalf  of Catholic  Social Services                                                               
(CSS),  informed the  committee  that CSS  operates 12  programs,                                                               
primarily in Anchorage,  but also in Kodiak,  Delta Junction, and                                                               
throughout the  state.  In the  last fiscal year, she  noted, CSS                                                               
served over  26,000 Alaskans.   She stated that although  some of                                                               
her testimony  will mirror  what has already  been spoken  by the                                                               
committee, it is important for CSS  to go on record in opposition                                                               
to HB 40.                                                                                                                       
MS. KRSNAK  stated that [the  terrorist attacks of  September 11,                                                               
2001] brought a  heightened vigilance in [the  United States] and                                                               
it is wise to pay more  attention to those who would threaten the                                                               
safety of  the U.S.   She emphasized  the importance  of insuring                                                               
that the response of the  United States to [the terrorist attacks                                                               
of September  11, 2001] and  increased threats to the  well being                                                               
of the country are addressed effectively and thoroughly.                                                                        
MS. KRSNAK stated that people need  the means to go to work, feed                                                               
their  families, and  take their  children  to school  or to  the                                                               
doctor.  Whether someone has  a driver's license will not prevent                                                               
him or her  from making certain that these  daily necessities are                                                               
met,  she  said.   By  refusing  to  license and,  therefore,  to                                                               
properly  regulate   drivers,  public  safety  continues   to  be                                                               
threatened, she said.                                                                                                           
MS. KRSNAK  stated that, with  all due respect  to Representative                                                               
Lynn, HB  40 does  nothing to  achieve the goals  it sets  out to                                                               
achieve.  For  example, she said it does  not strengthen homeland                                                               
security.    Furthermore,  HB 40  undermines  public  safety,  by                                                               
making certain  that many drivers on  the roads will not  be able                                                               
to get a  license or insurance.  Finally, she  noted, if enacted,                                                               
HB 40 would impose a huge cost to  the state at a time when every                                                               
dollar is scarce.                                                                                                               
MS.  KRSNAK  stated that  many,  if  not  all of  the  terrorists                                                               
involved in  [the terrorist attacks  of September 11,  2001] were                                                               
in the  U.S. lawfully  at the  time of  the tragedy.   Therefore,                                                               
they would have  been able to receive an  Alaska driver's license                                                               
if HB 40  had been enacted at the time.   Furthermore, a driver's                                                               
license is not necessary to board  a plane, she said.  Ms. Krsnak                                                               
also stated  that HB 40  would not  prevent identity theft.   She                                                               
said  that  by  providing  driver's   licenses  to  all  eligible                                                               
Alaskans, we minimize the use  of fraudulent or forged documents,                                                               
because we take away the need to use such documents.                                                                            
MS. KRSNAK stated that HB 40  will not prevent voter fraud; there                                                               
is  already  a federal  statute  penalizing  such behavior.    In                                                               
addition, she noted,  it is a basis for  almost automatic removal                                                               
or deportation  from the United  States.   She stated that  HB 40                                                               
would  threaten public  safety and  increases  cost to  insurance                                                               
companies and to insured motorists.   Licensed drivers are tested                                                               
and  insured,  while  unlicensed   ones  are  not.    Nationally,                                                               
uninsured  motorists cost  about $1.4  billion per  year, and  an                                                               
average of 14  percent of all accidents are  caused by unlicensed                                                               
drivers.   One  in five  drivers  involved in  fatal crashes  are                                                               
unlicensed, she  said.  Ms.  Krsnak stated that [CSS]  feels that                                                               
HB 40 has the potential to be costly.                                                                                           
MS. KRSNAK stated that because  of the difficulty in reliable and                                                               
proper  implementation  of  such a  law,  particularly  regarding                                                               
confusing  terminology   relied  on  in  the   bill,  there  will                                                               
undoubtedly  be  litigation  over its  application,  causing  the                                                               
state  precious  time  and  dollars.     Ms.  Krsnak  listed  the                                                               
following benefits to licensing  all eligible Alaskans:  Increase                                                               
in  state revenue  from increase  in  applications for  licenses;                                                               
improved public safety and safety  on roads and highways, because                                                               
more drivers will be licensed,  therefore insured and tested; and                                                               
reduced cost to the state and to licensed and insured drivers.                                                                  
MS. KRSNAK  stated that CSS  respectfully urges the  committee to                                                               
vote against HB 40.                                                                                                             
9:31 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON asked  if  a problem  exists where  people                                                               
arrive at shelters without identification.                                                                                      
MS. KRSNAK noted that CSS  operates three emergency shelters, two                                                               
in Anchorage,  and one  in Kodiak.   She stated  that it  is true                                                               
that many  of the  clients who  come to the  shelters do  so with                                                               
only the clothes  on their backs and without  documentation.  She                                                               
said, "We  want to  help them transition  out of  homelessness to                                                               
independent living, and we feel that this is another obstacle."                                                                 
MS.   KRSNAK,   in   response  to   a   follow-up   question   by                                                               
Representative Seaton,  noted that  CSS does have  an immigration                                                               
and refugee services program that  works directly with people who                                                               
are pursuing  legal residency.   She  indicated that  someone who                                                               
comes to the shelter with just  the clothes on his/her back "will                                                               
not have that  documentation in the event that they  don't have a                                                               
driver's  license, in  the event  that  they need  one to  secure                                                               
9:34 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  disclosed that he is  a practicing Catholic,                                                               
and he  said he applauds  CSS for its  good work.   Regarding the                                                               
people  who show  up with  only the  clothes on  their backs,  he                                                               
said, "Hopefully they  could attain some kind  of legal residency                                                               
and at that point be able to  get a driver's license."  He stated                                                               
that although everyone  is entitled to be loved, he  can love his                                                               
neighbor abundantly even though they  may or may not be qualified                                                               
for a driver's license.                                                                                                         
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH announced that HB 40 was heard and held.                                                                        
HB 319-REMOTE REC.CABIN SITE SALES/LOTTERY SALE                                                                               
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  announced that  the next  order of  business was                                                               
HOUSE BILL  NO. 319, "An  Act relating  to the disposal  of state                                                               
land by lottery; and relating  to the disposal, including sale or                                                               
lease, of remote recreational cabin sites."                                                                                     
9:36 a.m.                                                                                                                       
JIM  POUND,  Staff  to Representative  Hugh  Fate,  Alaska  State                                                               
Legislature, presented  HB 319 on behalf  of Representative Fate,                                                               
sponsor.   He told the committee  that HB 319 is  partly a result                                                               
of the Alaska  Constitution, Article VIII, Section  1, which read                                                               
as follows:                                                                                                                     
     SECTION 1.   Statement of Policy.  It is  the policy of                                                                    
     the State to  encourage the settlement of  its land and                                                                    
     the  development  of  its   resources  by  making  them                                                                    
     available for  maximum use  consistent with  the public                                                                    
MR.  POUND  noted  that  the  State of  Alaska  has  held  on  to                                                               
approximately  90 acres.   He  said that  HB 319  relates to  the                                                               
American dream  of owning a  piece of  property.  The  land being                                                               
held  by the  state is  essentially nonproductive  and is  exempt                                                               
from local taxation.   He opined that that land  is only an asset                                                               
when it is passed on to the private sector.                                                                                     
MR.  POUND  said this  remote  recreational  cabin site  bill  is                                                               
designed  to make  it easier  for individuals  to find  a perfect                                                               
location  for a  weekend escape,  or a  hunting or  fishing trip,                                                               
hopefully near  their own homes.   It means that  local residents                                                               
will be  building structures in parts  of the state where  no one                                                               
currently lives.                                                                                                                
MR. POUND noted  that a trickle down effect  would occur, because                                                               
building  materials, fuel,  and  remote  transportation would  be                                                               
purchased.  He  also noted that organized boroughs  would then be                                                               
allowed to  have property tax  bases they currently do  not have.                                                               
Mr.  Pound concluded  by saying  that  owning land  in Alaska  is                                                               
economic in basis, because land is  forever - it is not something                                                               
that has to do with a "boom or bust."                                                                                           
9:40 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON referred  to page 3, line 5,  which read as                                                               
      Sales under this section may be at public or private                                                                  
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  said that  he would like  some explanation                                                               
whether this  language refers  to private  sales that  only occur                                                               
after [land]  has gone  out to  a public sale  and is  a leftover                                                               
parcel,  or  whether  it  could  refer  to  sales  that  are  not                                                               
competitively  available   to  all  Alaskans.     [Regarding  the                                                               
language] he added,  "I'm hoping there'll be a  little cleanup in                                                               
MR.  POUND  offered his  understanding  that,  under the  current                                                               
policy, a  person can walk  in after  the open process  is closed                                                               
and say,  "Okay, I want  that little  plot of land  right there,"                                                               
and that can be negotiated  privately, "without it going back out                                                               
to public."                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON recommended  that  the  word "private"  be                                                           
clarified to  mean a private sale  after it has been  offered for                                                               
public sale.                                                                                                                    
9:44 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  turned  to  [page  2,  line  3]  where                                                               
"38.05.600" shows  as new text added  to HB 319.   He offered his                                                           
understanding  that  the State  of  Alaska  retained the  mineral                                                               
rights to virtually  everything.  He asked, "Now  on these remote                                                               
parcel sales, do they pass the mineral rights away?"                                                                            
MR.  POUND answered  no.    He indicated  that  [that portion  of                                                               
statute] was added [to the language  in the bill] to clarify that                                                               
there would not be a different set of rules.                                                                                    
9:46 a.m.                                                                                                                       
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH asked  Mr. Pound to explain  his previous comment                                                               
regarding  land only  being an  asset  when it's  in the  private                                                               
sector.   He remarked  that the University  [of Alaska]  has land                                                               
that is not in the  private sector, which is certainly considered                                                               
an asset.                                                                                                                       
MR. POUND  noted that the land  that makes up the  university and                                                               
the railroad is  exempt from local taxation;  therefore, there is                                                               
no tax  base.  He stated  his belief in local  taxation, and said                                                               
that, regarding possession of an  appraised value, one finds more                                                               
of an  appraisal in a  private sector  piece of property  than in                                                               
government owned [property].                                                                                                    
[HB 319 was heard and held.]                                                                                                    
HJR  3-CONST. AM: PERMANENT FUND                                                                                              
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH  announced that  the next  order of  business was                                                               
HOUSE  JOINT  RESOLUTION  NO.  3,  Proposing  amendments  to  the                                                             
Constitution  of  the State  of  Alaska  relating to  the  Alaska                                                             
permanent fund.                                                                                                               
TAPE 04-03, SIDE A                                                                                                            
9:49 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE HARRY CRAWFORD, Alaska State Legislature, as Co-                                                                 
sponsor, told the  committee that he believes this is  one of the                                                               
most controversial subjects  the legislature will deal  with.  He                                                               
shared that the  permanent fund dividend (PFD)  has benefited his                                                               
family by providing  the funds for the down payment  on the house                                                               
he  lives in,  for his  son to  attend the  University of  Alaska                                                               
Fairbanks,  and  for his  daughter  to  attend school  after  she                                                               
graduates this year.                                                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD  offered his belief that  the PFD program                                                               
was  started for  two reasons:    First, to  enlist the  public's                                                               
support   in  protecting   the  fund   itself,  which   has  been                                                               
successful.  Second,  to provide benefits to the  citizens of the                                                               
state, which has  also been very successful.  He  said he sees no                                                               
reason to change  the "payout."  He explained that  if the method                                                               
of payout is  to be changed, it is necessary  to have "buy-in" by                                                               
the citizens of the state.   He told the members that he believes                                                               
the only way to get permission  [to make changes] is to take [the                                                               
issue] before the people  for a vote.  That is what  HJR 3 is all                                                               
about, he said.                                                                                                                 
REPRESENTATIVE  ERIC  CROFT,  Alaska State  Legislature,  as  Co-                                                               
sponsor,  told the  committee that  he had  nothing more  to add,                                                               
because  Representative Crawford  had  spoken  eloquently on  the                                                               
9:51 a.m.                                                                                                                       
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH  said that  the  public  must realize  that  any                                                               
amendment  to the  constitution must  first pass  the legislature                                                               
and  be voted  on by  the public;  therefore, any  change in  the                                                               
constitutional  scheme dealing  with the  payout of  the dividend                                                               
which affects the constitution has to  be voted on by the public.                                                               
He emphasized  that the  legislature, in  itself, could  not make                                                               
this change.   The same  is true of  the percent of  market value                                                               
[POMV] issue that is being debated.   Any change must be voted on                                                               
by the people, he said.                                                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE  CRAWFORD explained  that the  only thing  that is                                                               
protected in the  constitution right now is the  principal of the                                                               
permanent fund.   The payout from the earnings  is only protected                                                               
by statute.                                                                                                                     
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH asked  for clarification that the  intent of this                                                               
resolution is to "constitutionalize" the dividend payout.                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT replied that is absolutely correct.                                                                        
9:53 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  commented that the discussion  of the POMV                                                               
and the issue  of earnings reserve is due to  the fact that there                                                               
is  a conflict  in the  way the  permanent fund  is managed.   He                                                               
explained  that when  the permanent  fund was  first created  the                                                               
investments  were  in  bonds  and   it  was  an  interest-bearing                                                               
account.   There  was a  steady  flow of  interest and  earnings.                                                               
After about  10 years the  permanent fund managers  changed their                                                               
basis  of  investing  in  the fund  to  an  asset-based  account,                                                               
including  investing in  real estate  and stocks.   He  explained                                                               
that [an  asset-based account] doesn't  generate income  until it                                                               
is sold.                                                                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  explained that his  problem with HJR  3 is                                                               
that it  institutes the  old way  that no  longer works  with the                                                               
current  way that  we invest  the permanent  fund.   He clarified                                                               
that  he  does  not  have  a problem  with  having  the  dividend                                                               
secured, rather with  this particular way of doing it.   He asked                                                               
Representative  Crawford to  explain why  the legislature  should                                                               
insert  into the  constitution  an earnings  formula  that is  no                                                               
longer consistent with the way the funds are managed.                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE  CRAWFORD   responded  that  [HJR  3]   would  not                                                               
preclude  "changing the  way we  deal  with the  fund," but  will                                                               
"protect the way we do a payout."   He stated that he has nothing                                                               
against a  POMV approach as  it relates  to the process  and "the                                                               
way rates deal  with it."  He indicated his  concern is in regard                                                               
to  "what the  ... payout  is  after that."   He  stated that  he                                                               
thinks  there needs  to be  a  vote of  the people  before it  is                                                               
decided whether there will be any earnings that go to the state.                                                                
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH offered his understanding  that there has to be a                                                               
vote of the people, no matter what.                                                                                             
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD  answered that  that applies to  a change                                                               
to the  POMV approach,  which would  be a  constitutional change.                                                               
He reminded the  committee that, currently, there only  has to be                                                               
a  majority vote  in the  legislature to  take money  out of  the                                                               
earnings reserve.   That,  he said,  is the  issue that  is being                                                               
addressed in [HJR 3].                                                                                                           
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH asked  if  it  wasn't true  that  in the  entire                                                               
history of the earnings reserve,  the legislature has never taken                                                               
money out.                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE  CRAWFORD said  that's true.   However,  he added,                                                               
"We haven't  gotten to  the point  where we have  no money.   And                                                               
we're  getting   closer  and   closer  to   that  day   when  the                                                               
constitutional budget  reserve runs  out and  we'll be  forced by                                                               
the   courts   to   go  to   the   earnings   reserve   account."                                                               
Representative Crawford said he wants to head that day off.                                                                     
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH asked  Representative Crawford  to confirm  that                                                               
there is nothing  in [HJR 3] that addresses the  money that would                                                               
go to  the government to  run government programs "when  we reach                                                               
that  so-called rainy  day,"  but only  addresses  the payout  of                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  CRAWFORD  replied that  [HJR  3  deals] with  the                                                               
payout  from the  earnings reserve  account, whether  it goes  to                                                               
government or to dividends.                                                                                                     
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH questioned whether  this proposal really protects                                                               
dividends if it can go to government as well.                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE  CRAWFORD responded  that  [HJR  3] would  protect                                                               
where the payout goes.                                                                                                          
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH said,  "If we stay true to  your philosophic base                                                               
of ensuring that the permanent  fund dividend benefits the people                                                               
who  need it  most  for  ... mortgages,  food,  housing, ...  and                                                               
education, wouldn't  it be best  to ... treat the  permanent fund                                                               
like a true trust, and pass out  the entire value of the trust to                                                               
the people to let them spend it the way they want?"                                                                             
REPRESENTATIVE  CRAWFORD  replied  that that  doesn't  take  into                                                               
account the generations to come.                                                                                                
9:56 a.m.                                                                                                                       
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH suggested  that people right now  can invest that                                                               
[money] for their own generations.   He indicated that that would                                                               
vest the  power of the permanent  fund to the people.   He asked,                                                               
if buy-in is desirable, then wouldn't that be a way to do it?                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE  CRAWFORD  said  that that  doesn't  address,  for                                                               
example, people who  decide to come live in Alaska  in the future                                                               
and "some that may leave that may take that with them."                                                                         
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH said,  "If you trust the people,  let them invest                                                               
it for their own future generations to come."                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE  CRAWFORD noted  again  that there  will be  other                                                               
generations of people  who travel to Alaska [and stay].   He told                                                               
the  committee that  he  moved  to Alaska  for  the pipeline  and                                                               
decided that  Alaska was  the place  that he  wanted to  live and                                                               
raise his family.  He stated  his belief that there will be other                                                               
new Alaskans who find their way to  the state the way he did.  He                                                               
said he does not want to "close that door."                                                                                     
CHAIR WEYHRAUCH remarked,  "When I and many other  people came to                                                               
Alaska, there was no PFD, and we  came to pitch a hand in, rather                                                               
than looking for a handout."                                                                                                    
9:56 a.m.                                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD told Chair Weyhrauch  that that is a good                                                               
point.   He stated  that he  has never  felt that  the PFD  was a                                                               
handout.  He told the committee  that he receives a small payment                                                               
from ExxonMobil  Corporation about  4 times  a year,  because his                                                               
grandfather owned  40 acres in south  Texas that had oil  and gas                                                               
on it.   Nobody has  ever called  that a handout  from ExxonMobil                                                               
Corporation,  because  it  is  an  inheritance.    Representative                                                               
Crawford stated his  belief that everyone can pitch a  hand in to                                                               
Alaska; the PFD  is the royalty that Alaskans get  from the value                                                               
of [the state's] oil, not a handout.                                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD continued:                                                                                              
     Three  quarters of  all the  oil  revenues that  [have]                                                                    
     come into the state  since we established the permanent                                                                    
     fund  went  to  government;  one quarter  went  to  the                                                                    
     people  - for  direct benefit  to  the people.   And  I                                                                    
     don't think  that I want  to be responsible  for taking                                                                    
     ... the people's quarter away,  without ever giving the                                                                    
     people the right to speak on it.                                                                                           
CHAIR  WEYHRAUCH joked,  "I just  wanted  to find  what button  I                                                               
could push  that would get  you ... to  the heart of  what you're                                                               
really after."   He told Representatives Crawford  and Croft that                                                               
the committee  is not through hearing  HJR 3.  He  stated that he                                                               
cannot predict  the chances of  it moving anywhere, but  he would                                                               
give the  co-sponsors the  honor of hearing  it in  committee and                                                               
listening to the public's feelings about it.                                                                                    
[HJR 3 was heard and held.]                                                                                                     
There being no  further business before the  committee, the House                                                               
State Affairs  Standing Committee  meeting was adjourned  at 9:58                                                               

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