Legislature(2013 - 2014)BARNES 124

04/11/2014 01:00 PM RESOURCES


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01:36:35 PM Start
01:36:52 PM SB190
02:20:25 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
--Delayed to 1:30 p.m. Today--
+= SB 138 GAS PIPELINE; AGDC; OIL & GAS PROD. TAX TELECONFERENCED
<Bill Hearing Canceled>
+ SB 190 DELEGATION OF GUIDE-OUTFITTER DUTIES TELECONFERENCED
Moved Out of Committee
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                       ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                               
                  HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                          
                            April 11, 2014                                                                                      
                              1:36 p.m.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Eric Feige, Co-Chair                                                                                             
Representative Dan Saddler, Co-Chair                                                                                            
Representative Peggy Wilson, Vice Chair                                                                                         
Representative Mike Hawker                                                                                                      
Representative Craig Johnson                                                                                                    
Representative Paul Seaton                                                                                                      
Representative Scott Kawasaki                                                                                                   
Representative Geran Tarr                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Kurt Olson                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR SENATE BILL NO. 190(L&C)                                                                               
"An  Act permitting   certain  persons  who  are not  licensed  by  the                                                         
Big  Game   Commercial  Services   Board  to   provide  or  assist   in                                                         
providing certain guide services."                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED CSSB 190(L&C) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR SENATE BILL NO. 138(FIN) AM                                                                            
"An  Act  relating   to the  purposes,   powers,  and  duties   of  the                                                         
Alaska  Gasline  Development  Corporation;   relating  to  an in-state                                                          
natural  gas  pipeline,  an  Alaska  liquefied  natural  gas  project,                                                          
and   associated   funds;   requiring    state   agencies   and   other                                                         
entities  to  expedite  reviews  and actions  related  to  natural  gas                                                         
pipelines  and  projects;  relating   to the  authorities   and duties                                                          
of  the  commissioner   of  natural  resources  relating   to  a  North                                                         
Slope  natural  gas project,  oil  and gas  and  gas only  leases,  and                                                         
royalty  gas  and  other  gas  received  by  the state  including   gas                                                         
received  as  payment  for  the production   tax on  gas;  relating  to                                                         
the tax  on oil  and gas  production,  on oil  production,  and on  gas                                                         
production;   relating   to  the   duties   of  the   commissioner   of                                                         
revenue  relating  to  a  North  Slope  natural  gas  project  and  gas                                                         
received    as   payment   for    tax;   relating    to   confidential                                                          
information  and  public  record  status  of information   provided  to                                                         
or in  the custody  of the  Department  of Natural  Resources  and  the                                                         
Department  of  Revenue;  relating  to  apportionment  factors  of  the                                                         
Alaska  Net  Income   Tax  Act;  amending   the  definition   of  gross                                                         
value  at the  'point  of  production'  for  gas for  purposes  of  the                                                         
oil  and  gas   production  tax;   clarifying   that  the  exploration                                                          
incentive  credit,  the  oil or  gas producer   education  credit,  and                                                         
the  film production  tax  credit  may not  be taken  against  the  gas                                                         
production  tax  paid in  gas;  relating  to the  oil or  gas producer                                                          
education   credit;   requesting   the   governor   to   establish   an                                                         
interim   advisory  board   to  advise   the  governor   on  municipal                                                          
involvement   in a  North  Slope  natural  gas  project;  relating   to                                                         
the  development   of a  plan  by  the  Alaska  Energy  Authority   for                                                         
developing  infrastructure   to  deliver  affordable  energy  to  areas                                                         
of  the state  that  will not  have  direct  access  to a  North  Slope                                                         
natural  gas  pipeline  and  a  recommendation   of  a funding  source                                                          
for  energy  infrastructure   development;   establishing   the Alaska                                                          
affordable  energy  fund;  requiring  the commissioner   of revenue  to                                                         
develop   a  plan   and  suggest   legislation   for   municipalities,                                                          
regional   corporations,  and   residents  of  the  state  to  acquire                                                          
ownership   interests   in  a   North  Slope   natural   gas  pipeline                                                          
project;   making  conforming   amendments;   and   providing   for  an                                                         
effective date."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     - BILL HEARING CANCELED                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BILL: SB 190                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: DELEGATION OF GUIDE-OUTFITTER DUTIES                                                                               
SPONSOR(s): SENATOR(s) HUGGINS                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
02/21/14        (S)        READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                      
02/21/14        (S)        L&C                                                                                                  
03/11/14        (S)        L&C AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                    
03/11/14        (S)        -- MEETING CANCELED --                                                                               
03/13/14        (S)        L&C AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                    
03/13/14        (S)        Heard & Held                                                                                         
03/13/14        (S)        MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                          
03/18/14        (S)        L&C AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                    
03/18/14        (S)        -- MEETING CANCELED --                                                                               
03/20/14        (S)        L&C AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                    
03/20/14        (S)        Moved CSSB 190(L&C) Out of Committee                                                                 
03/20/14        (S)        MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                          
03/21/14        (S)        L&C RPT CS  2DP 1NR  NEW TITLE                                                                       
03/21/14        (S)        DP: MICCICHE, OLSON                                                                                  
03/21/14        (S)        NR: STEDMAN                                                                                          
04/02/14        (S)        TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                                                                   
04/02/14        (S)        VERSION: CSSB 190(L&C)                                                                               
04/03/14        (H)        READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                      
04/03/14        (H)        RES                                                                                                  
04/11/14        (H)        RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
GARY ZEPP, Staff                                                                                                                
Senator Charlie Huggins                                                                                                         
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Introduced CSSB 190(L&C) on behalf of the                                                                
sponsor, Senator Huggins.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
BURKE WALDRON, Captain, Operations Commander                                                                                    
Division of Alaska Wildlife Troopers                                                                                            
Department of Public Safety (DPS)                                                                                               
Palmer, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions regarding CSSB 190(L&C).                                                              
                                                                                                                                
KELLY VREM, Chairman                                                                                                            
Big Game Commercial Services Board                                                                                              
Sutton, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of CSSB 190(L&C).                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
RICHARD "DICK" ROHRER                                                                                                           
Kodiak, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of CSSB 190(L&C).                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SAM ROHRER, President                                                                                                           
Alaska Professional Hunters Association                                                                                         
Kodiak, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of CSSB 190(L&C).                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
ROD ARNO, Executive Director                                                                                                    
Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC)                                                                                                    
Palmer, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of CSSB 190(L&C).                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:36:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR   DAN   SADDLER   called   the   House   Resources   Standing                                                        
Committee  meeting  to order  at 1:36  p.m.   Representatives  Seaton,                                                          
P.  Wilson,  Kawasaki,   Hawker,  Johnson,  Feige,  and  Saddler   were                                                         
present  at  the  call  to order.    Representative   Tarr  arrived  as                                                         
the meeting was in progress.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
             SB 190-DELEGATION OF GUIDE-OUTFITTER DUTIES                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:36:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  SADDLER  announced  that the  only order  of business  is  CS                                                         
FOR SENATE  BILL  NO. 190(L&C),  "An  Act permitting  certain  persons                                                          
who  are not  licensed  by  the  Big Game  Commercial  Services   Board                                                         
to provide or assist in providing certain guide services."                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:37:37 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
GARY   ZEPP,   Staff,   Senator    Charlie   Huggins,   Alaska    State                                                         
Legislature,  introduced   CSSB 190(L&C)   on behalf  of  the sponsor,                                                          
Senator  Huggins.   He clarified  that  this bill  is unrelated  to  SB                                                         
160,   the  hunting   guides'   concession   program.      To  provide                                                          
background  for  the bill,  he explained  that  in the late  1980s  the                                                         
legislature   enacted   statutes   related   to  the   guide-outfitter                                                          
industry.     Unfortunately,   the  enacted   statutes   inadvertently                                                          
made  it  illegal  to  compensate  unlicensed   persons  to  pack  game                                                         
meat,  hides, and  perform  other basic  camp  chores.   Additionally,                                                          
the guide-outfitter   industry  could  not hire  an unlicensed  person                                                          
in  an  apprenticeship   or training   structure  to  perform  certain                                                          
guide  services  and receive  compensation.    He  said  CSSB 190(L&C)                                                          
would  allow a  registered  guide-outfitter  to  delegate  the packing                                                          
of game  meat,  hides,  and other  gear  to an  unlicensed  person  and                                                         
to  compensate    that  person   for   carrying   out   those  duties.                                                          
Currently  under  AS  08.54.790(9)(C),  it  is  illegal  to compensate                                                          
an unlicensed person for packing meat.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ZEPP explained  that  Section  1(b)  of the  bill would  enable  a                                                         
guide-outfitter   to  hire  unlicensed   persons   for  apprenticeship                                                          
training  in  the  big game  guide  industry,  helping  those  persons                                                          
to  qualify  to be  an  assistant  guide  and  to  be compensated   for                                                         
those  services.   Additionally,  Section  1(b)  would provide  that  a                                                         
licensed,  registered  guide-outfitter,   a class-A  assistant  guide,                                                          
or  an assistant  guide  must  be physically  present  while  training                                                          
the  unlicensed  persons.    Further,   the  bill  clarifies  existing                                                          
statutes    and   makes   a   registered    guide-outfitter    equally                                                          
responsible  for  a  violation  of  state,  federal,  or  game guiding                                                          
statute  or regulation   committed  by a  person  employed  to provide                                                          
guide  services   for  the   guide  outfitter.     The  bill  provides                                                          
solutions    for   the   guide-outfitter    industry   and   clarifies                                                          
existing   laws  regarding   a  guide-outfitter's   responsibilities.                                                           
As  can be  imagined,  it  is  difficult  to  find folks  to  work  for                                                         
free.    Currently,  no  opposition  to  the  bill  has been  received                                                          
from  the  Division   of  Alaska  Wildlife   Troopers,  Department   of                                                         
Commerce,  Community  &  Economic  Development,   Big Game  Commercial                                                          
Services  Board,  Alaska  Professional   Hunters  Association,  Alaska                                                          
Outdoor  Council,  or Safari  Club  International.   The  bill has  two                                                         
zero  fiscal  notes  from the  Department  of  Public  Safety  and  the                                                         
Department of Commerce, Community & Economic Development.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:40:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZEPP,  responding  to  Co-Chair  Saddler  about opposition  to  the                                                         
bill,  explained   that  during  a  previous  hearing   a concern   was                                                         
raised  about the  word "delegation"   in Section  1(b).   He met  with                                                         
the  guide-outfitter   to   address  this  and   created  a  committee                                                          
substitute.     He  said  the   word  "delegate"   was  replaced   with                                                         
"assist"  because   the concern   was that  delegation   was  too  much                                                         
authority to give to an unlicensed person.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:41:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON said  the  bill looks  good  to him  but  asked                                                         
about  the  meaning  of  the  language   on  page  1,  line  14,  which                                                         
states  the  unlicensed  person  can  assist  in  "tracking,  killing,                                                          
or  attempting   to   kill".     He  inquired   whether   this  is   an                                                         
interpretation   that  an unlicensed   person  who is  with  the  guide                                                         
can  actually  do  the hunting   for someone  else  in  the  field  and                                                         
can actually shoot or bow hunt the animal instead of the client.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ZEPP  understood   that  through  this  apprenticeship   training                                                          
program  the  person   would  be  assisting,  but  not  instructing   a                                                         
client,   which  can   only  be  the   guide-outfitter,   the  class-A                                                          
assistant guide, or the assistant guide.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON  read  from  Section  1(b),   saying  he  would                                                         
like  it  to  be   clarified  on  the   record  that  this   is  not  a                                                         
substitution  so  that a  client is  not hunting  and someone  else  is                                                         
hunting  for  the  client  because  the unlicensed   person  can  track                                                         
and  kill the  animal.    He said  he understands   about  going  after                                                         
an animal  that  has  been wounded,  but  he wants  to  understand  the                                                         
sideboards for what this new language would allow.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZEPP said he understood Representative Seaton.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:43:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR    SADDLER,    responding    to   Representative    Kawasaki,                                                          
clarified  that  the  bill  before  the committee   is CSSB  190(L&C),                                                          
labeled 28-LS1466\C.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:44:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   P.  WILSON  drew  attention  to  page  2,  lines  2-4,                                                         
which  state,  "An unlicensed   person may  only  assist  in providing                                                          
a  guide service   under this  subsection   if a  licensed  registered                                                          
guide-outfitter,   class-A  assistant  guide,  or  assistant  guide  is                                                         
physically  present".    She understood   the guide  does  not have  to                                                         
be on site, but someone who is licensed must be on site.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZEPP answered correct.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   P. WILSON  asked whether  an  "assistant  guide"  must                                                         
be licensed.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZEPP responded correct.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:45:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   KAWASAKI   observed   that  Section   1(c),  page   2,                                                         
lines  7-11,  lets the  [Big  Game Commercial   Services  Board]  adopt                                                         
regulation  regarding  persons  who do  not hold  a license.   He  said                                                         
the word  "delegation"  in  previous  bill versions  gave  him trouble                                                          
and  inquired   whether  the  sponsor's   intent  is  that  delegation                                                          
would still be done, but the word is just no longer in the bill.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ZEPP  allowed  that  concern   with  the  word  "delegation"   was                                                         
raised  before.    The  sponsor  tried  to  address   that  concern  in                                                         
Section  1(b)  by  replacing  "delegation"  with  "assist".    He  said                                                         
his understanding   of Section  1(c)  is that  it is more  about  being                                                         
able to compensate unlicensed persons for their services.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:46:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON   said   he  is   trying  to   understand   the                                                         
difference  between  Sections   1(a)  and 1(b).    He understood   that                                                         
under  Section  1(a),   an  unlicensed  person  not  in  training   can                                                         
provide  the services  of  packing,  preparing,  salvaging,  or caring                                                          
for  a  client's   meat;   packing  trophies;   and   packing  camping                                                          
equipment.   Under  Section  1(b),  an unlicensed  person  in training                                                          
can do  other services  but  those must  be with  a client.   He  asked                                                         
what an unlicensed person would be training for.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZEPP  answered  Section  1(a) is  a delegation  of  authority,  but                                                         
only  for  being  able  to  carry  things,  such  as  meat  or camping                                                          
equipment.     Section  1(b)   is  an  assist  at   an  apprenticeship                                                          
program   where  a   licensed   guide-outfitter,   class-A   assistant                                                          
guide, or an assistant guide must be physically present.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:48:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON  said  he wants  to  ensure  it is  understood                                                          
how  the "tracking,  killing,  or  attempting  to  kill" for  a client                                                          
by  an  unlicensed   person  in  training   is  confined.    While   he                                                         
understood  that  this  will be  established  through  regulation,   he                                                         
said he does not know what the context of that is.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ZEPP   deferred  to  Captain   Burke  [Waldron]   of  the  Alaska                                                          
Wildlife Troopers for an answer.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
BURKE  WALDRON,  Captain,  Operations  Commander,  Division  of Alaska                                                          
Wildlife  Troopers,  Department   of Public  Safety,  after  receiving                                                          
confirmation   from  Co-Chair  Saddler  that  the  question   is  about                                                         
the difference   between  Sec. 08.54.635(a)  and  (b),  explained  that                                                         
(b)   allows   an  apprenticeship    program   where   an   unlicensed                                                          
apprentice  would  be able  to assist  in the  pursuit  and the taking                                                          
of  animals  while  under  the  direct  supervision   of a  registered                                                          
guide,  class-A  assistant  guide, or  an assistant  guide,  which  are                                                         
licensed  positions.     He emphasized   that  the  unlicensed  person                                                          
must  be   accompanied   by  a  licensed   guide.     Under  (a),   the                                                         
unlicensed   person  is  allowed  to  pack  things,  such  as  meat  or                                                         
trophies, alone, without being accompanied.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:50:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON  inquired   whether  an  assistant   guide  has                                                         
the ability to stalk, pursue, track, and kill an animal.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CAPTAIN   WALDRON   replied  that   [an   assistant   guide]  has   the                                                         
licensed  authority  to guide  a client  to do  those things,  so  [the                                                         
assistant  guide]  is  participating   in the  take.   [The  assistant                                                          
guide] is not supposed to be the actual shooter.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON  expressed  his concern  that  the  bill  seems                                                         
to  say  the   [unlicensed   person]  has  more   authority  than   the                                                         
assistant   guide  because   line  14   states  "stalking,   pursuing,                                                          
tracking,  killing,  or attempting  to  kill big  game".   He stressed                                                          
he  wants  to ensure  that  non-licensed   personnel  are  not allowed                                                          
to do more than the lower level licensed personnel.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CAPTAIN  WALDRON  answered  that the  language,  "stalking,  pursuing,                                                          
tracking,  killing",   comes  from  the  definition  of  "take".    The                                                         
unlicensed  apprentice  would  have  no more  authority  or ability  to                                                         
do those  things  than  the licensed  guide  that  is supervising   the                                                         
apprentice in the field.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:52:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  SADDLER  drew attention  to  page 1,  line 13,  which states                                                          
that  the  person  "may  assist  in  providing  the  guide  services".                                                          
He  asked   whether  the  unlicensed   person   can  actually   do  the                                                         
tracking,   killing,  and  other  things;  in  other   words,  how  the                                                         
conceptual  line  is drawn  between  assisting  someone  else doing  it                                                         
and "doing it yourself."                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CAPTAIN  WALDRON  offered  his understanding  that  the  intent is  for                                                         
an  apprenticeship  program  so  [an  unlicensed  person]  can  do  all                                                         
of  those  things  when  in  the  supervision   of a  licensed  guide.                                                          
[An unlicensed   person] can  help  spot, help  stalk, help  pursue  --                                                         
things [an unlicensed person] is currently not allowed to do.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  SADDLER   understood  the  distinguishing   element  of  this                                                         
situation   is that  [the   unlicensed  person]   is there   under  the                                                         
supervision  of  a licensed  guide  or  assistant  guide  for training                                                          
purposes.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CAPTAIN WALDRON responded correct.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:52:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   KAWASAKI  said he  does  not have  much of  a problem                                                          
with  the  way the  bill  is now  written.    Commenting  on  the  need                                                         
for  such a  program  generally,  he  said he  does  not want  to  have                                                         
people  who are  unlicensed  remain  unlicensed  indefinitely  if  they                                                         
should actually be licensed.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR SADDLER opened public testimony on CSSB 190(L&C).                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:54:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KELLY VREM, Chairman,  Big Game Commercial Services  Board, stated that                                                         
CSSB 190(L&C)  does not grant anyone  any powers or any  abilities that                                                         
did  not exist  before.    It is  simply  clarification.   The  guiding                                                         
industry has been  operating under the assumption that it  was legal to                                                         
hire people to  pack meat or hire people  to pack meat and  go along to                                                         
be instructed to gain the necessary days  in the field and the years of                                                         
experience to  become an assistant  guide.   However, it was  found out                                                         
that the very  precise language contained in the  definition of guiding                                                         
apparently  precludes that,  so  this  is a  housekeeping  measure.   A                                                         
person  receiving  the  meat  in  return  for  packing  a  moose  would                                                         
technically be considered compensated.   This bill allows for [licensed                                                         
guides] to  compensate people  for removing game  meat from  the field.                                                         
Always before,  the [licensed  guides] had assumed  this was  legal and                                                         
were surprised that it was not.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:56:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  VREM, regarding  (b),  explained a  person must  have  60 days  of                                                         
training in  the field before he/she  can apply for an  assistant guide                                                         
license.  Currently,  a person could volunteer and  not be compensated.                                                         
However, it is unrealistic  to expect someone to give up  60 days to be                                                         
an apprentice.   The bill  would allow  training of these  people under                                                         
the direct  supervision of a [licensed  guide].  His  interpretation of                                                         
direct  supervision means  within  voice control  --  through a  normal                                                         
level  of  voice  the  licensed  person  must  be  in  control  of  the                                                         
unlicensed person.   He said regulations  that the Big  Game Commercial                                                         
Services Board intends  to adopt will  reflect that it must be  in very                                                         
close proximity with  voice control.  If  he had his way,  he would use                                                         
the word "participate" rather than  "assist," because participating and                                                         
observing  is a more  accurate description  of what  is going  on.   He                                                         
offered his hope that the bill will  pass so [an unlicensed person] can                                                         
be compensated.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:57:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  FEIGE requested  Mr. Vrem's  opinion  on how  the bill  would                                                         
affect the overall professionalism of the guiding industry in Alaska.                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. VREM  replied it would  allow [professionalism]  to be raised.   He                                                         
reiterated  that a  person  is  already required  to  have  60 days  of                                                         
hunting experience in  the state, at least  30 of which are  in a guide                                                         
camp.  Currently there is a conflict  in requiring training in order to                                                         
be  a guide,  but a  person cannot  be compensated  while getting  that                                                         
training.   The  bill will  raise the  standards for  guiding and  also                                                         
protect what  is currently customary;  it will  be a valuable  asset to                                                         
the guides to be able to train their personnel more thoroughly.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  FEIGE  asked   whether  Mr.  Vrem  believes   the  bill  will                                                         
contribute to the overall health of the state's guiding industry.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. VREM  answered yes, adding that  right now the guiding  industry is                                                         
increasing the  skill set  and the qualifications  needed to  become an                                                         
assistant guide.   Overall, the Big  Game Commercial Services  Board is                                                         
in the  process of  upping the  standards and  this bill  goes hand-in-                                                         
glove with that.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:59:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  SADDLER quipped  that within  voice control  for some  guides                                                         
will mean two square miles.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. VREM stated that packing is  strictly labor or pure muscle, whereas                                                         
(b) is a close contact situation.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:59:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
RICHARD "DICK" ROHRER  related that he came to Alaska  in 1965 and 1967                                                         
to  work on  the Kenai  Peninsula as  an unpaid  apprentice for  George                                                         
Pollard.  In 1969,  he moved to Alaska.  In  1970 Mr. Pollard contacted                                                         
him to say  that based on his  abilities he was qualified  to be issued                                                         
an assistant guide  license.  So, he  became a licensed guide  based on                                                         
Mr. Pollard's  written recommendation.   Fast  forwarding to  2005 when                                                         
the Big Game Commercial Services Board  was reinstated, Mr. Rohrer said                                                         
he  was one  of the  two guides  appointed to  that board.   The  board                                                         
passed  regulations  to  raise  the  standard  and  professionalism  of                                                         
guides.   Included was a  regulation defining the  practical experience                                                         
requirement for someone  who wanted to be licensed  as assistant guide;                                                         
this practical experience  had to be acquired prior to  licensure.  The                                                         
statute  for assistant  guides requires  two years  of experience.   He                                                         
said the  board provided further  definition by a  regulation requiring                                                         
that it be  "at least 30 days in each  of two years and at  least 30 of                                                         
those 60  days experience,  this is prior  to licensure,  the applicant                                                         
had  to, and  I  will quote  from our  regulations,  'has knowledge  in                                                         
trophy  judging, caping,  skinning, butchering,  meat and  trophy care,                                                         
and  has   directly  participated   in  the  spotting,   stalking,  and                                                         
subsequent harvest of  at least three big game animals  during a guided                                                         
hunt in this state.'"  Once  meeting those requirements, a person could                                                         
then  apply for  an  assistant license,  he explained.    That was  the                                                         
practice of the  industry from the  time he came to Alaska  until about                                                         
two years ago  when the troopers, with concurrence  from the Department                                                         
of  Law,  determined  that  because  of  the  statutory  definition  of                                                         
guiding,  only  a   licensed  person  could  provide   those  services.                                                         
Therefore, anyone  being paid by a  licensed guide as an  apprentice in                                                         
camp was  in violation of  the law.   This bill  is the result  of that                                                         
determination, he stated.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:04:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROHRER  addressed Representative  Seaton's questions,  pointing out                                                         
that the items/terms listed  on page 1, line 14, of  the bill come from                                                         
the  statutory   definition  of  guiding.     Regarding  Representative                                                         
Kawasaki's concern about someone  remaining unlicensed indefinitely, he                                                         
assured members that  that will not happen because,  when a contracting                                                         
guide  is training  someone who  is unlicensed,  the contracting  guide                                                         
must pay the  trainee as well as  the licensed guide that  is assisting                                                         
the  client.   Since the  unlicensed  person cannot  assist the  client                                                         
without  a  licensed  guide  being  physically  present,  there  is  no                                                         
financial incentive for  a contracting guide to attempt  to continue to                                                         
hire unlicensed people once they are fully qualified to be licensed.                                                            
                                                                                                                                
2:05:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SAM  ROHRER,   President,  Alaska  Professional   Hunters  Association,                                                         
stressed CSSB 190(L&C) is extremely  important to the guiding industry.                                                         
He said  he was  14 years  old when  he began  working in  his father's                                                         
hunting camp  as a packer, skinner,  spotter, boat wrangler,  and doing                                                         
whatever needed done.   His first year working, his  father paid him by                                                         
buying him his first set of binoculars  that he still uses and that his                                                         
kids use.   His  10-year-old daughter,  Anna, spends  time out  at camp                                                         
with him,  and he is trying  to teach her  a work ethic.   But, without                                                         
this legislation,  he cannot compensate  Anna for helping him  at camp.                                                         
He cannot pay  her for helping him  skin or fir sitting on  a hill with                                                         
him looking  through binoculars  to teach  her what a  guide does.   He                                                         
cannot even compensate  her by giving her a set  of binoculars like his                                                         
father did  for him  because it  would be  breaking the  law.   This is                                                         
ridiculous and needs to be fixed.   This good, common-sense legislation                                                         
needs to be passed, he opined.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:08:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ROD ARNO, Executive  Director, Alaska Outdoor Council  (AOC), supported                                                         
CSSB  190(L&C),  noting  that  AOC  is made  up  of  48  outdoor  clubs                                                         
throughout the state  and about 2,500 individual members.   He said AOC                                                         
normally tries to  stay out of issues dealing with  the guide industry,                                                         
but this is  important because AOC has members who  are guides, members                                                         
who hunt  with guides, and members  who consider guides  as competition                                                         
for game.   The bill's importance  is that there will  be knowledgeable                                                         
guides coming  up into the  industry.   Camping and photography  can be                                                         
practiced, but killing cannot be practiced  without being on the scene.                                                         
It  is  very  important  for  young  guides  to  have  that  apprentice                                                         
opportunity and to be compensated for  it.  The bill is well structured                                                         
and AOC believes  the bill is clear that the apprentice  "may assist in                                                         
providing the  guide services",  which AOC sees  as an  opportunity for                                                         
individuals to gain the experience needed  to be good quality guides in                                                         
the future.   He qualified that AOC's  only concern is Sec.  3, page 5,                                                         
line 1,  regarding equal responsibility.   It needs to be  ensured that                                                         
this coincides with AS 08.54.710(b) where  it is the licensees that are                                                         
potentially in a  position where they can be disciplined  as guides and                                                         
transporters, and  AOC wants  to ensure that  the unlicensed  packer is                                                         
treated fairly  in that  situation.  The  legislation creating  the Big                                                         
Game Commercial  Services Board was  extremely important and  AOC wants                                                         
to  see  this board  work.    He  offered  AOC's appreciation  for  the                                                         
legislature  continually watching  and  participating in  the Big  Game                                                         
Commercial Services Board activities.   Responding to Co-Chair Saddler,                                                         
Mr. Arno said  the language of concern is in the  bill version labelled                                                         
[28-LS1466\]C, page 5, line 1,  regarding equal responsibility under AS                                                         
08.54.710(b)  for the  licensees.   He pointed out  that these  packers                                                         
will  not  be  licensed,  so  AOC  wants  to  ensure  that  that  equal                                                         
responsibility is clear.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:12:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  SADDLER  closed  public  testimony  on  CSSB  190(L&C)  after                                                         
ascertaining no one else wished to testify.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:12:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI said the bill  does not state how many licensed                                                         
guides  there would  be per  unlicensed person.   He  asked whether  it                                                         
would be one  licensed guide per apprentice or could  there be times of                                                         
many unlicensed persons with only one registered guide.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZEPP believed the  intention is not to have a  legion of unlicensed                                                         
folks running  around with one  guide-outfitter, one  class-A assistant                                                         
guide, or an assistant guide.  He deferred to Mr. Vrem for a response.                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  VREM allowed  that, theoretically,  there  could be  half a  dozen                                                         
apprentices with one licensed guide  but said that practically speaking                                                         
it would  be one at a  time.  It takes  a certain amount of  stealth to                                                         
accomplish the  mission, he  pointed out.   Trying to  kill a  moose in                                                         
Alaska  is  vastly  different  than  a procession  of  porters  in  the                                                         
savannas of Africa.   Practically speaking, it would  be one apprentice                                                         
with one  licensed guide in  a camp.   A registered guide  might employ                                                         
two or  three apprentices, but they  would be scattered  throughout the                                                         
camps and some would be back in the main camp.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:15:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON recalled testimony  stating the unlicensed person                                                         
would be under  voice command or communication, but noted  that that is                                                         
not specifically in  the bill.  He inquired whether  under the language                                                         
on page  2, line 4,  the licensed  guide being "physically  present" is                                                         
the assumption of what voice communication means.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  VREM said  that is  the  assumption; it  is while  engaged in  the                                                         
spotting, stalking, or  attempting to kill the animal.   The regulation                                                         
will specify  that, he  said, as the  board does  not want  someone two                                                         
miles away because  then the apprentice is not learning  anything.  The                                                         
apprentice must  be right there and  will have to be  within whispering                                                         
distance at the  appropriate time.  It is a  close supervision scenario                                                         
and the board intends to enact regulations to specify that.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR SADDLER understood the test  for physically present is whether                                                         
the apprentice  is within vocal distance  to hear somebody,  whether it                                                         
is yelling or whispering as the circumstances might dictate.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:16:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI remarked there  are lots of circumstances under                                                         
which a licensed  guide could lose his/her license.   He inquired about                                                         
what would happen when an unlicensed person does something wrong.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. ZEPP deferred to Mr. Vrem or Captain Waldron for an answer.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CAPTAIN WALDRON  replied the  kind of misbehaving  by the  packer would                                                         
dictate what  kind of action could  follow.  When an  apprentice packer                                                         
applies for a  license in the future, that history  would be exposed to                                                         
the board and the board could  take it into consideration when choosing                                                         
whether to  issue a license  to that person.   The kind  of misbehavior                                                         
would  dictate  what  kind  of potential  criminal  action  the  Alaska                                                         
Wildlife Troopers could take on the packer.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:18:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR FEIGE  voiced his support  for CSSB  190(L&C), saying it  is a                                                         
continuation of the  sequential improvement of these  statutes over the                                                         
past few years.  These small  changes better clarify and further define                                                         
what is  expected of folks  within the guiding  industry.  It  has been                                                         
done in conjunction with the Big  Game Commercial Services Board, which                                                         
has been very active in advocating  for these changes.  It will promote                                                         
the overall health of Alaska's guiding  industry and raise the level of                                                         
professionalism.  Concerns raised during  consideration of the bill are                                                         
a level of  specificity that should be addressed when  the board writes                                                         
the  regulations and  he  has  confidence that  the  board  will do  an                                                         
outstanding job.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:20:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  FEIGE moved  to report CSSB  190(L&C) out  of committee  with                                                         
individual  recommendations and  the  accompanying  zero fiscal  notes.                                                         
There being  no objection,  CSSB 190(L&C) was  reported from  the House                                                         
Resources Standing Committee.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:20:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There  being  no further  business  before  the  committee,  the  House                                                         
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:20 p.m.                                                                 

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
SB190 DCCED Fiscal Note.pdf HRES 4/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
SB 190
SB190 APHA Letter.pdf HRES 4/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
SB 190
SB190 SCI Letter.pdf HRES 4/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
SB 190
SB190 Sectional Analysis.pdf HRES 4/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
SB 190
SB190 Sponsor Statement.pdf HRES 4/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
SB 190
SB190 Version A.pdf HRES 4/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
SB 190
SB190 Version C.pdf HRES 4/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
SB 190
SB190 DPS Fiscal Note.pdf HRES 4/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
SB 190
SB190 Emails.pdf HRES 4/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
SB 190
SB190 Want Email.pdf HRES 4/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
SB 190