Legislature(2021 - 2022)GRUENBERG 120

03/02/2021 01:00 PM MILITARY & VETERANS' AFFAIRS

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ HB 34 NAMING VIETNAM HELI. PILOTS' MEM. BRIDGE TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
-- Testimony <Invitation Only> --
*+ HB 97 LAND VOUCHERS; PFDS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
-- Testimony <Invitation Only> --
                    HB  97-LAND VOUCHERS; PFDS                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:23:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK  announced that  the next order  of business  would be                                                               
HOUSE  BILL  NO. 97,  "An  Act  relating  to the  veterans'  land                                                               
purchase discount; establishing state  land vouchers; relating to                                                               
the  permanent  fund dividend;  relating  to  the duties  of  the                                                               
Department  of Revenue;  authorizing  the  Department of  Natural                                                               
Resources to accept state land  vouchers; relating to eligibility                                                               
for public assistance; and providing for an effective date."                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK announced  that HB 97 would be set  aside for later in                                                               
the meeting.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:27:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK announced that the final  order of business would be a                                                               
return to  HOUSE BILL NO. 97,  "An Act relating to  the veterans'                                                               
land  purchase   discount;  establishing  state   land  vouchers;                                                               
relating to the  permanent fund dividend; relating  to the duties                                                               
of  the  Department of  Revenue;  authorizing  the Department  of                                                               
Natural  Resources to  accept state  land  vouchers; relating  to                                                               
eligibility  for   public  assistance;   and  providing   for  an                                                               
effective date."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:29:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The  committee  took  a  brief  at-ease  at  1:29  to  address  a                                                               
technical issue.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:29:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MIKE BARNHILL,  Deputy Commissioner, Office of  the Commissioner,                                                               
Department  of Revenue,  presented a  PowerPoint on  HB 97  [hard                                                               
copy  included  in the  committee  packet]  He stated  that  this                                                               
proposed legislation  would provide an option  for permanent fund                                                               
dividend (PFD) recipients  to forgo a cash PFD in  exchange for a                                                               
land  voucher with  a  face  value two  times  the  value of  the                                                               
statutory formula of the PFD,  regardless of what the legislature                                                               
appropriates  as  the cash  value.    He described  the  historic                                                               
precedent  for using  land vouchers  beginning with  compensation                                                               
for Revolutionary  War veterans, and  referenced a book  by David                                                               
McCullough  called "The  Pioneers" for  more historical  context.                                                               
He said the  overall goal of the  bill is to get  more state land                                                               
into the hands of Alaskans.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:33:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL specified  that these vouchers can't                                                               
be used  to buy Mental  Health Trust  land, and children  will be                                                               
prohibited from participating.   Vouchers can't be  used for rent                                                               
or fees, only  purchase, and the electronic  PFD application must                                                               
be  used  to  opt  for   land  vouchers.    Eligibility  must  be                                                               
determined  prior  to  the  issuance of  the  PFD  for  logistics                                                               
reasons.   Vouchers are  transferable and  don't expire;  the DOR                                                               
will track any transfers.   Garnishment such as for child support                                                               
will be handled the same way as cash PFDs.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:36:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER  noted that there were  three zero fiscal                                                               
notes and  asked how the  program would operate without  any cost                                                               
added to the state.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY  COMMISSIONER  BARNHILL  replied that  the  Department  of                                                               
Revenue (DOR) does  have a relatively small  positive fiscal note                                                               
that  covers the  programming costs  incurred to  modify the  PFD                                                               
system  to accommodate  the  voucher program.    On a  go-forward                                                               
basis the cost of issuing  the vouchers is relatively de minimis.                                                               
If this  program becomes  popular it  may cost  more, but  at the                                                               
outset the program isn't expected to be expensive to administer.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAUSCHER asked  for  confirmation  that, in  this                                                               
initial  year,  the  cost  would  be just  for  the  software  to                                                               
initiate the  program and  there would  be no  cost to  the state                                                               
after the first year.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL answered, "No  sir, not at the scale                                                               
that we anticipate."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:38:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   CLAMAN,  regarding   the  garnishment   process,                                                               
referred to  a formula  of a  $2300 dividend  that would  yield a                                                               
land voucher  for $4,600.   He  then asked -  if the  dividend in                                                               
cash is  only $1,000 and  the $1,000  is garnished -  whether the                                                               
land voucher would still have a value of $3,600.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL replied, "That's exactly correct."                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  CLAMAN   asked  whether  this  would   create  an                                                               
incentive  for people  - who  know  they're going  to have  their                                                               
dividends garnished  - to apply  for land vouchers,  knowing that                                                               
they're  behind  on whatever  is  causing  their dividend  to  be                                                               
garnished, and  they get  this $3,600  value windfall  instead of                                                               
losing the $1,000.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL  replied that he can't  speak to the                                                               
incentives or motivation  for taking advantage of  a program, but                                                               
the result that Representative Claman  described is accurate.  He                                                               
added that the department believes  that the paper [land] voucher                                                               
is still  subject to garnishment  or attachment. He  stated, "The                                                               
difficulty  in  having  [the]  Child  Support  Division  do  that                                                               
attachment is:  all you're then  doing is giving someone  a piece                                                               
of paper instead of cash."                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN,  using the $4,600 example,  asked how much                                                               
land a  husband and wife,  using both of their  vouchers totaling                                                               
$9,200, could acquire.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY  COMMISSIONER BARNHILL  deferred to  Mr. Parsons  for that                                                               
question.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:41:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MARTY  PARSONS,  Director, Division  of  Mining  Land and  Water,                                                               
Department of  Natural Resources (DNR) averages  about $3,000 per                                                               
acre  on  land  sales  statewide and  normally  offers  five-acre                                                               
parcels.  Using  two PFD land vouchers, a couple  would get about                                                               
two-thirds  of  a  five-acre  parcel  of land  paid  for  by  the                                                               
voucher.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:41:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NELSON asked for  confirmation that residents must                                                               
apply electronically.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL confirmed that's correct.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NELSON asked,  considering there's  a substantial                                                               
number of residents who fill  out their PFD application on paper,                                                               
whether there is a reason for the requirement to file online.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY  COMMISSIONER BARNHILL  replied  that  the department  has                                                               
made an  ongoing effort to  channel as many Alaskans  as possible                                                               
into   the  electronic   application   process;  the   electronic                                                               
restriction is also true for  the Pick-Click-Give program.  Every                                                               
year  the number  of paper  applications declines  substantially,                                                               
and he believes the department is  now at a historic low in terms                                                               
of  the  number of  paper  applications  it  receives.   He  then                                                               
referred to Anna MacKinnon for expansion on this.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:43:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ANNA   MACKINNON,  Acting   Director,  Permanent   Fund  Dividend                                                               
Division,  Department of  Revenue, confirmed  Deputy Commissioner                                                               
Barnhill's  assessment of  the number  of paper  applications and                                                               
noted that  90 percent of  Alaskans filed their  PFD applications                                                               
online  last  season.    She  offered  to  provide  specifics  if                                                               
necessary.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:44:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK asked what the main  reasons are for people not filing                                                               
electronically.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. MACKINNON  answered that they  are doing outreach  and survey                                                               
on that  question but that  she has  been told by  the leadership                                                               
team at  the Permanent Fund  Dividend Division that the  group is                                                               
heavily  influenced by  age, and  by rural  areas having  latency                                                               
issues  with being  able  to  access the  Internet.   Most  paper                                                               
applications are from the senior population.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:45:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STORY  asked for  a sense of  the location  of the                                                               
land  available  for  purchase  through  the  program,  and  what                                                               
services are provided with the land.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. PARSONS  replied that the  state runs several  different land                                                               
disposal  programs;   subdivision  programs  from   Southeast  to                                                               
Western to  Central Alaska, with  land sales all over  the state.                                                               
Those lands that do not sell as  part of the land sale program go                                                               
into  an  "over-the-counter"  sale,  where anyone  can  buy  them                                                               
directly online.  They also  have a remote cabin staking program,                                                               
wherein  a person  can lease  a parcel  of up  to 20  acres in  a                                                               
remote area  with the first  three years' getting  appraisals and                                                               
surveys done  and then convert it  to a land sale  contract.  The                                                               
land disposals  are statewide,  and amenities  and infrastructure                                                               
in place depend on the borough.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STORY followed  up asking for a sense  of where in                                                               
the Juneau area the lands are available.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. PARSONS  answered that the  department has not had  many land                                                               
sales  in  the Southeast  area  due  to  its entitlement  as  the                                                               
Tongass  National Forest.    There  have been  sales  of land  in                                                               
Tenakee Springs,  Pelican, Prince  of Wales  Island, and  some of                                                               
the  older  subdivisions  near   Mendenhall  Glacier  which  were                                                               
originally state land sale programs.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:48:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL said that  under HB 97, when someone                                                               
opts for  a land voucher on  their PFD application the  cash from                                                               
PFDs not  paid will lapse to  the general fund.   The final point                                                               
is  that this  bill would  require the  Department of  Health and                                                               
Social Services  (DHSS) administrator to consider  the voucher as                                                               
income  or  resources  in determining  eligibility  for  benefits                                                               
programs.    He  noted  that   there  is  a  DHSS  representative                                                               
available for questions on this point.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:49:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STORY  asked  how  it  is  possible  to  have  no                                                               
[positive] fiscal  note if cash  were to be transferred  from the                                                               
Permanent Fund Dividend.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL  responded that Representative Story                                                               
has a good  point, and the department may be  amending the fiscal                                                               
note;  however, it  would be  indeterminate since  the department                                                               
does not know how many people  would be electing the land voucher                                                               
in lieu of the cash dividend.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:51:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. PARSONS  noted that Alaska  has the only constitution  in the                                                               
country that  has a  specific section  for natural  resources for                                                               
the purpose  of developing and  settling the land to  the maximum                                                               
use consent  with the public  interest; the proposed bill  is one                                                               
of the ways to fulfill  that constitutional obligation.  There is                                                               
no other  state that has  less land in private,  individual hands                                                               
than Alaska, with  Alaskan residents holding about  .5 percent of                                                               
Alaskan land,  whereas the federal  government will  retain about                                                               
60 percent of  the land mass in Alaska "once  our entitlement has                                                               
been completed"  [under the  1959 Alaska Statehood  Act].   HB 97                                                               
would provide  an asset  of which Alaska  has a  large inventory,                                                               
and reduces the  strain on the state treasury by  using land as a                                                               
form of  currency.  Survey  respondents indicated  that cash/cost                                                               
was a  significant reason  for not  already participating  in the                                                               
land  sale program,  so this  voucher program  provides residents                                                               
with the  opportunity to participate.   Private ownership  of the                                                               
land helps  not only settle  the land,  but also to  increase the                                                               
tax base.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:53:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK asked if a  group of people (excluding children) could                                                               
pool vouchers.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL responded  that anyone could pool or                                                               
sell their vouchers.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:54:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN  noted that under the  current proposal the                                                               
cash  dividend   would  lapse  into   the  General  fund   to  be                                                               
appropriated as the  legislature sees fit; he  then asked whether                                                               
the  department has  a perspective  on amending  the proposal  so                                                               
that  the  cash would  divert  to  the Permanent  Fund  principal                                                               
instead.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER  BARNHILL answered  that the logic  in having                                                               
it lapse to the General fund  is that the state is providing some                                                               
additional  value  through  the  land voucher  program,  and  the                                                               
General  fund should  be  compensated  for that.    The lapse  is                                                               
functionally that compensation.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN  questioned whether -  if part of  the goal                                                               
is to  grow the size of  the Permanent Fund principal  - it would                                                               
be an incentive for those who  wanted to help grow the principal,                                                               
since they  could get  a land  voucher and  also divert  the cash                                                               
value back to the principal.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY  COMMISSIONER BARNHILL  noted  that Representative  Claman                                                               
has  made a  fair point  and to  the extent  that people  want to                                                               
participate in essentially turning  dollars back to the permanent                                                               
fund to grow  the principal, it's ultimately a  policy call where                                                               
best  to place  those lapsing  dollars.   The  intention here  is                                                               
simply  to compensate  the General  fund for  the subsidy  that's                                                               
built into the sale of land, but  it would be possible to put the                                                               
money into the permanent fund.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:57:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER  BARNHILL referred to  page four of  the hard                                                               
copy of  the presentation,  a cash flow  based on  a hypothetical                                                               
participation  level of  40,000  applicants opting  for the  land                                                               
voucher approach, out  of 640,000 PFD applicants.   The PFD would                                                               
be $600  million cash disbursements,  $40 million would  lapse to                                                               
the general fund,  and the face value of the  land vouchers would                                                               
be  40,000   applicants  times  $4,600  totaling   $184  million.                                                               
Assuming  $300 million  in land  was sold,  with $184  million in                                                               
vouchers and  $116 million in  cash, when adding the  $40 million                                                               
in  lapsing cash  plus the  $116 million  in cash  sales, it's  a                                                               
total  of  $156  million  to  the  general  fund.    He  stressed                                                               
throughout that this is purely a hypothetical scenario.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:59:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER  concluded with a  mockup of what  the actual                                                               
voucher  would  look  like,  with  a  unique  serial  number  and                                                               
transfer information.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:59:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK asked  if whether, under the  proposed legislation, it                                                               
would be possible for someone  to receive a land voucher prorated                                                               
for half of the PFD.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY  COMMISSIONER  BARNHILL  answered  that HB  97  would  not                                                               
provide for the  ability to split a PFD between  land voucher and                                                               
cash  for  situations  in  which   the  applicant  is  not  under                                                               
garnishment.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   TUCK  asserted,   "All-or-nothing  unless   you're  being                                                               
garnished."                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL confirmed that is correct.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:00:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN,  seeking clarification on  the garnishment                                                               
process, offered a hypothetical scenario  in which he owes $5,000                                                               
to different  creditors and his  PFD is garnished every  year. He                                                               
asked, if he applied  for his PFD and chose to  convert it to the                                                               
land voucher,  whether he would  get the $4,600 land  voucher and                                                               
the  creditors could  garnish the  dividend based  on the  $1,000                                                               
cash value and get the full amount.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY  COMMISSIONER  BARNHILL   restated  the  hypothetical  and                                                               
explained  that  the  $1,000  cash  value  would  go  toward  the                                                               
garnishments,  and   the  person   would  have  a   land  voucher                                                               
certificate  that  would  be  reduced by  $1,000  in  value.  The                                                               
creditors owed  the remaining $4,000  would have the  usual legal                                                               
tools  to  pursue  the  resident for  the  remaining  $4,000.  He                                                               
stressed  that  the DOR  is  not  managing or  administering  the                                                               
latter piece.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:02:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN,  following up with the  same hypothetical,                                                               
proffered that  the original  $5,000 garnishment  is now  down to                                                               
$4,000 and,  assuming the debt  still exists, next year  the same                                                               
amount of  $1,000 could be  garnished and he could  still receive                                                               
the land voucher value of $3,600.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY  COMMISSIONER BARNHILL  replied  that is  correct, and  he                                                               
pointed out that the creditor has  a net result of $1,000 whether                                                               
or not  the resident  elected for  the land  voucher or  the cash                                                               
PFD.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN  remarked that  this could  be way  to game                                                               
the  system by  accumulating land  vouchers or  reselling a  land                                                               
voucher on a secondary market.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY  COMMISSIONER BARNHILL  noted  that it  is an  interesting                                                               
question  but remarked  that it's  not yet  known if  a secondary                                                               
market will emerge.   He noted that a land  voucher program would                                                               
provide  security for  people who  are being  garnished, in  that                                                               
there's  additional   value.    He   said  that  the   DOR  isn't                                                               
administering that portion,  but there are still  legal tools and                                                               
rights  for cash  and  real  assets. He  used  the  example of  a                                                               
noncustodial parent  who is  accumulating land  vouchers, freeing                                                               
up hypothetical cash for garnishment.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:06:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  TUCK noted  for the  record that  Representative Tarr  had                                                               
joined the meeting five minutes prior.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:06:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK  noted that  many people  would like  to buy  land but                                                               
don't have the  financial means; he hypothesized that  if he were                                                               
delinquent  in  his bills,  he  would  have  a better  chance  of                                                               
getting  land  if  he  took  the  land  voucher  along  with  the                                                               
garnishment process instead of taking a  cash PFD and using it to                                                               
pay debts. This  could incentivize people to not  pay their bills                                                               
and still get land.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL clarified  that what the Governor is                                                               
trying  to do  is get  land into  the hands  of Alaskans  who are                                                               
having  difficulty achieving  self-sufficiency.   Access to  land                                                               
and  real  property means  being  able  to  build  a house  or  a                                                               
business; the state  has a land bank and residents  can put it to                                                               
productive use.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:09:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK  said that while he  appreciates the intent of  HB 97,                                                               
he  questions how  the administration  came up  with the  idea of                                                               
"allowing  people who  have garnished  PFDs to  still get  a land                                                               
voucher,  but those  who can  only afford  a portion  of the  PFD                                                               
cannot  get a  land  voucher."   In  response  to  a request  for                                                               
clarification,  he  asked  Deputy   Commissioner  asked  how  the                                                               
administration  came up  with the  idea of  allowing people  with                                                               
garnished PFDs  to still  get a  land voucher.   He  asked Deputy                                                               
Commissioner Barnhill to confirm  his understanding that under HB
97, someone whose  PFD is garnished can still get  a land voucher                                                               
and  offset the  garnishment of  the cash  value toward  the full                                                               
value of the land voucher.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL confirmed that is correct.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK surmised  that someone receiving a  $1000 dividend but                                                               
wants to  withhold $500 to get  caught up on bills,  would not be                                                               
allowed to  purchase a land  voucher with the remaining  $500. He                                                               
questioned why the  land voucher could be prorated  for those who                                                               
are under garnishment but not for those who are not.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL indicated  that the department would                                                               
take that  under advisement  and stressed that  the issue  is the                                                               
ease of administration.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK asked if it would  be easier to specify that if anyone                                                               
isn't eligible  to receive  their full PFD  for any  reason, then                                                               
the individual wouldn't be eligible for a land voucher?                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BARNHILL replied  that potentially that would                                                               
be easier, but questions whether  it meets the policy objectives.                                                               
He said  he is not  sure that  restricting the land  voucher from                                                               
anyone who  has their  PFD garnished is  the policy  direction in                                                               
which  the departments  wants  to  go.   However,  he said  Chair                                                               
Tuck's  idea potentially  expands the  number of  participants in                                                               
the program, so it's worth consideration.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:12:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   TARR  asked   what   the   benefit  beyond   the                                                               
constitutional  objectives  is.    Presuming  that  this  program                                                               
works, the  result may be  that many Alaskans have  property that                                                               
is remote and  not accessible by road, unlikely  to be developed,                                                               
and would  carry no state  property tax, only local.  She posited                                                               
that if  the program is  not well  thought-out, then it  could be                                                               
disruptive  to  future development  plans  that  might make  more                                                               
sense for  the area. She said  that this program doesn't  seem to                                                               
have a purpose.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER  BARNHILL explained  that in history  of land                                                               
voucher programs  the [federal] government has  never specified a                                                               
use for the  property; individuals can decide  for themselves how                                                               
best to use  the property. The history of the  country shows that                                                               
once people own land, they will put it to productive use.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:15:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TARR responded:                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     So  it's this  administration's belief  that there's  a                                                                    
     large number of  Alaskans out there that have  a lot of                                                                    
     money  and  they're  standing by  ready  to  develop  a                                                                    
     property in any number of  ways if only they had $4,600                                                                    
     to get access to it?  That seems laughable. Just for my                                                                    
     property it would be more  than $4,600 to get just like                                                                    
     the  smallest  amount  of  supplies  to  the  site  for                                                                    
     building.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative Tarr  added that in  2021, $4,600 doesn't  go very                                                               
far.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY  COMMISSIONER  BARNHILL  explained  that  earlier  in  the                                                               
hearing Mr.  Parsons had discussed  the average cost of  a parcel                                                               
of land and is available for questions.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:16:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. PARSONS noted land sales  in accessible areas along the Glenn                                                               
Highway and the Tok area, as well  as remote sites.  The money in                                                               
this program  would be to offset  the cost of the  parcel itself,                                                               
not  necessarily  transportation  or needed  development  of  the                                                               
parcel.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:17:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TARR said  while there may not be  a resolution to                                                               
the  question, Mr.  Parsons  had  made her  point;  if $4,600  is                                                               
what's  holding  someone back  from  land  ownership, then  there                                                               
won't be development  potential. She noted that it's  not fair to                                                               
give  false  expectations  about   the  possibilities  with  this                                                               
legislation.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:18:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  CLAMAN  asked to  return  to  the question  of  a                                                               
secondary  market  and  mentioned  Bitcoin as  an  example  of  a                                                               
security that  doesn't have  a certificate.  Someone who  has the                                                               
resources to  buy vouchers on  the secondary market at  less than                                                               
face  value   could  feasibly  acquire  land   at  a  substantial                                                               
discount.   He noted that  there are many  potential consequences                                                               
it doesn't seem the department  has thought through; he asked for                                                               
an example of  some of the potential consequences  of a secondary                                                               
market for land vouchers that the department has analyzed.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
DEPUTY  COMMISSIONER BARNHILL  replied  that  it's impossible  to                                                               
predict whether  a secondary  market will  emerge and  what could                                                               
happen  in terms  of fluctuating  value; if  one does  emerge and                                                               
people were  able to take  advantage, it still means  that people                                                               
have more money in their pocket to pay their obligations.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:21:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
VERDIE BOWEN,  Director of Veterans  Affairs, Office  of Veterans                                                               
Affairs, Department of Military  and Veterans Affairs, noted that                                                               
he can  see how this  would benefit  veterans in that  they could                                                               
receive  the land  voucher and  still  be eligible  for the  [25]                                                               
percent discount  available to veterans  on the  actual purchase.                                                               
The Native Veteran Land Allotment  through the federal government                                                               
has  lands  located throughout  the  state  with much  more  land                                                               
available than for over-the-counter sales.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:22:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK  asked about the  "Native Veteran Land  Allotment" and                                                               
whether  the  land  vouchers  provided   under  HB  97  would  be                                                               
applicable to purchases of that specific land.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOWEN replied that the federal program is a different issue.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:23:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR TUCK announced that HB 97 would be held over.                                                                             

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB 34 HFIN Hearing Request Memo 2.25.2021.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 34
HB 34 Sponsor Statement 2.25.2021.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
SFIN 5/17/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 34
HB 34 ver A 2.26.2021.PDF HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 34
HB 34 Additional Info - Vietnam Helicopter Memorial - Time Magazine 2.7.2020.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
SFIN 5/17/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 34
HB 34 Additional Info - Air & Space Magazine Article 2.7.2020.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
SFIN 5/17/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 34
HB 34 Bridge Images 2.7.2020.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
SFIN 5/17/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 34
HB 34 Additional Info - VHPA Website 2.7.2020.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
SFIN 5/17/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 34
HB 34 Additional Info - Helicopters in Vietnam 2.7.2020.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
SFIN 5/17/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 34
HB 34 Additional Info - VHPA Honored 2.7.2020.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 34
HB 97 Hearing Request Memo 2.25.2021.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 97
HB 97 Bill Transmission Letter 2.11.21.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 97
HB 97 Sectional Analysis 3.01.2021.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 97
HB 97 ver A 2.25.2021.PDF HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 97
HB 97 Dept of Revenue Presentation 3.01.2021.pdf HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 97
HB 97 Fiscal Note DHSS-FS 2.9.2021.PDF HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 97
HB 97 Fiscal Note DNR-MLW 2.10.2021.PDF HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 97
HB 97 Fiscal Note DOR-PFD 2.10.2021.PDF HMLV 3/2/2021 1:00:00 PM
HB 97