Legislature(2017 - 2018)GRUENBERG 120

04/15/2017 10:00 AM JUDICIARY

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
-- Delayed to 5:10 PM --
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
+= HB 200 NONPARTISAN OPEN PRIMARY ELECTIONS TELECONFERENCED
Moved CSHB 200(JUD) Out of Committee
+= HB 13 NO ST/MUNI FUNDS: FED IMMIGRAT REGISTRY TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
-- Public Testimony --
            HB 13-NO ST. FUNDS FOR FEDERAL REGISTRY                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
5:2:11 PM                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CLAMAN announced that the  first order of business would be                                                               
HOUSE BILL NO.  13, "An Act prohibiting the  expenditure of state                                                               
or  municipal  assets to  create  a  registry  based on  race  or                                                               
religion."                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
5:12:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ANDY JOSEPHSON,  Alaska State Legislature, advised                                                               
that this  bill arose  from a  series of  statements made  by the                                                               
national administration  before the national election,  after the                                                               
national election,  and after the inauguration.   Essentially, he                                                               
explained, Title  44.99, is called "Miscellaneous  Laws" and this                                                               
bill  adds  a prohibition  to  spending  state assets  by  aiding                                                               
federal agency  in creating registries  based on  race, religion,                                                               
ethnicity, or  national origin.   It  is noteworthy,  he related,                                                               
that  the section  falls  under "other  prohibitions  on uses  of                                                               
state  assets," such  as  aiding the  federal  government in  any                                                               
infringement  of Alaskan's  Second Amendment  rights to  keep and                                                               
bear  arms  and due  process  rights.    He suggested  that  this                                                               
legislation  be  viewed as  a  civil  liberties and  anti-federal                                                               
overreach provision.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
5:14:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PAUL KELLY,  Staff, Representative  Andy Josephson,  Alaska State                                                               
Legislature, explained  that HB  13 prevents state  and municipal                                                               
resources from  being spent  in order to  violate the  privacy of                                                               
Alaskan  residents  on  issues  that  should  not  be  of  public                                                               
interest,  including  race,  religion,  ethnicity,  and  national                                                               
origin.   This bill is  a preventative  measure meant to  stop an                                                               
injustice  before it  happens and,  he commented  that it  should                                                               
save money  for the state  and its municipalities  while securing                                                               
liberties  that   should  be  protected  by   state  and  federal                                                               
constitutions.  He  referred to Korematsu v.  United States, [323                                                             
U.S.  214  (1944) contained  within  the  committee packet],  and                                                               
explained  that  Fred  Korematsu   was  an  American  citizen  of                                                               
Japanese  ancestry who  went into  hiding rather  than submit  to                                                               
Japanese internment camps required by  the Department of the Army                                                               
during World  War II.   Mr.  Korematsu was  arrested and  he then                                                               
took his case  all the way up to the  United States Supreme Court                                                               
which, in  the end,  ruled against  him.   He surmised  that many                                                               
people regard  this as one of  the worst decisions of  the United                                                               
States Supreme  Court, and it  proved that the justice  system is                                                               
rarely expedient  when rights are  violated, and that  justice is                                                               
not always guaranteed in the end.   Mr. Korematsu spent more than                                                               
three years in  custody until he and his family  were released at                                                               
the end of the war.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. KELLY advised  that the state stands to save  money with this                                                               
legislation, there is a zero  fiscal note, and this bill prevents                                                               
unfunded mandates of the federal  government from consuming state                                                               
and  municipalities resources.    Another reason  to support  the                                                               
bill,  he related,  is  to protect  the  liberty of  constituents                                                               
because  they may  arrive from  the Philippines,  Canada, Mexico,                                                               
Europe, Russia, Japan, and Viet  Nam, and Alaska's residents hold                                                               
privacy and other  constitutional rights sacred.   In summary, he                                                               
said, this bill is about  the following: prohibiting the state or                                                               
its  municipality from  using  its assets  to  create a  registry                                                               
based  on  race,  religion, ethnicity,  or  national  origin;  it                                                               
spares Alaskans  the expense, hassle,  and uncertainty,  of using                                                               
the courts  to defend their  rights; it saves Alaska's  state and                                                               
municipalities  resources  that  would  be  used  to  support  an                                                               
unfunded mandate; and it reduces government intrusion.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
5:18:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  noted that the school  districts must have                                                               
some sort  of records as to  who speaks what language,  and while                                                               
the  records  are  not  necessarily   based  on  race,  religion,                                                               
ethnicity,  or  national origin,  they  may  be based  simply  on                                                               
language, which offers a good idea  of the student's origin.  She                                                               
asked how that interplays with this legislation.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  KELLEY responded  that  this  legislation addresses  federal                                                               
mandates, and Legislative Legal  and Research Services found that                                                               
although  this information  is sometimes  collected within  state                                                               
and municipal agencies,  it is never published other  than in its                                                               
aggregate  form,  such  as  a   percentage  of  different  races,                                                               
ethnicities,  religions, or  national origins,  in a  statistical                                                               
sense.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
5:20:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX referred  to  Mr.  Kelly's statement  that                                                               
"it's never published" and asked  whether the school district has                                                               
the information.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. KELLEY  replied that he  was unsure exactly  what information                                                               
the school districts keep, but if  the issue is the importance of                                                               
what language someone  speaks, it would not be  necessary to know                                                               
where they come from, simply the language they speak.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX expressed that  the language someone speaks                                                               
is probably a pretty good indication of their origin.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOSEPHSON  explained  that the  research  request                                                               
included advising of the "benign  registries" made currently, and                                                               
Legislative  Legal  and  Research   Services  reported  that  the                                                               
Department of Health and Social  Services (DHSS) does gather some                                                               
of that  information, and this  bill does not allow  Alaska's own                                                               
assets  to be  used  when there  is a  federal  imposition for  a                                                               
registry request  based solely on  race and religion alone.   The                                                               
concern, he  said, was that  the administration wanted a  list of                                                               
Muslim  Americans  and  Hispanic  Americans,  and  this  bill  is                                                               
actually a response to those race based registries.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
5:22:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  noted that it appears  from Representative                                                               
Josephson's testimony that  this only relates to  a federal order                                                               
and asked  why he wouldn't  want to craft  it so that  if someone                                                               
had this idea to do it in  Alaska, such as the mayor of Anchorage                                                               
or  governor  of Alaska,  the  bill  doesn't prohibit  them  from                                                               
creating those  lists as long  as it's  not related to  a federal                                                               
mandate.    She  opined  that California  Governor  Earl  Warren,                                                               
before  he  became the  darling  of  the  liberals as  the  Chief                                                               
Justice  of  the Supreme  Court,  was  "kind  of a  racist"  with                                                               
respect to the Japanese citizens.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOSEPHSON referred  to an  article from  The Hill                                                             
magazine  published two  months ago,  and the  Ambassador to  the                                                               
United Nations,  Nikki Haley, former governor  of South Carolina,                                                               
repudiated  the idea  of a  registry.   Although, he  noted, when                                                               
Secretary  of  State  Rex  Tillerson  was  asked  about  it,  Mr.                                                               
Tillerson said  that while he ruled  out a blanket ban  on Muslim                                                               
immigration  to America,  he would  need more  information before                                                               
deciding   whether   to   support    a   registry   of   Muslims.                                                               
Representative  Josephson said  he  would have  the same  concern                                                               
about the  mayor of Anchorage or  the governor of Alaska  if they                                                               
had  made statements  in that  manner, but  they haven't.   Given                                                               
that  section  the  legislation was  applied  was  about  federal                                                               
overreach, he said the concern  was with the federal government's                                                               
request for registry.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
5:24:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KOPP related  that he  certainly agrees  with the                                                               
spirit  of  the legislation,  yet  commented  that this  is  more                                                               
difficult than it  appears because the state  takes federal money                                                               
in  its  education  system  and  justice  system,  and  both  the                                                               
Department of  Corrections (DOC) and Department  of Education and                                                               
Early Development  (DEED) have exhaustive lists  on these issues.                                                               
He  advised  that  DOC  can  produce  printouts  on  pretty  much                                                               
everything  this bill  tells  them not  to do,  and  he would  be                                                               
interested  to know  whether  that  is required  as  part of  the                                                               
federal penal  system or receiving  federal funding.   He pointed                                                               
out that  in the  state's education system,  when applying  for a                                                               
student loan  or graduate  school, a person  fills out  all these                                                               
blanks and  some of it is  to determine what kind  of funding the                                                               
person was  eligible, and if they  fit into a minority  status it                                                               
can  actually  open up  doors,  so  they  are not  all  nefarious                                                               
reasons.   In the  legislature's fervor  to do  good, he  said he                                                               
wanted to  be sure it  didn't accidentally cross over  into doing                                                               
something harmful due to the  federal nexus to state funding type                                                               
issues.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
5:25:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOSEPHSON noted  that although  constituents have                                                               
said  they  would  not  support,  for  example,  the  efforts  of                                                               
immigration and customs  to perform a "roundup," he  did not want                                                               
to get into those issues  because there could be circumstances to                                                               
support a roundup  of someone who was dangerous.   He pointed out                                                               
that the focus  in this legislation was on any  federal effort to                                                               
say, "This  registration is based  on this  and this alone."   He                                                               
referred  to a  report by  Tim Spangler,  [Legislative Legal  and                                                               
Research Services,  contained within the committee  packets], who                                                               
found  no  evidence that  anything  was  done in  isolation  just                                                               
because of one's race or religion,  and that no one cared to have                                                               
that data  in isolation with no  other purpose.  For  example, he                                                               
related, it  is a known  fact that  someone of a  particular race                                                               
may be medically  predisposed to a certain disease,  which may be                                                               
a relevant  area of race  data.  Certainly,  he said, there  is a                                                               
lot of data on race, but not  solely on race or religion and that                                                               
is what this bill targets.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
5:27:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE REINBOLD said  the definition of a  registry is "a                                                               
place or an office where registers  or records are kept," and she                                                               
thought  this may  be  the  vehicle to  get  rid  of the  massive                                                               
unconstitutional  databases  kept   on  students,  families,  and                                                               
teachers  within Alaska's  schools,  and asked  the  goal of  the                                                               
bill.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOSEPHSON  responded  that the  goal  was  partly                                                               
preventative,  and  partly to  note  that  this is  a  historical                                                               
moment,  and that  the people  of Alaska  would not  tolerate the                                                               
registry of  individuals for the  reasons alone that they  are of                                                               
that race or religion, and not for benign reasons.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON  suggested adding  the word  "solely" to                                                               
the following language  as a friendly amendment  on CSHB 13(STA),                                                               
Version O, [AS  44.99.040(a)((1)(C), page 1, line 14  and page 2,                                                               
line 1,] to read as follows:                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
            (C) create a registry [solely] based on                                                                         
     race, religion, ethnicity, or national origin; or                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
5:29:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE REINBOLD  noted that  "it's cool"  to go  back and                                                               
look at the  contributions of African Americans  and the building                                                               
of the Alaskan Highway, and  offered that she could probably list                                                               
a  dozen of  special days  based on  a specific  race Alaska  has                                                               
celebrated, such as Black History  Month.  She asked whether this                                                               
bill  has anything  to  do  with public  safety  because this  is                                                               
probably the biggest  repeal of state government of  any bill she                                                               
had ever  seen, and asked whether  the ultimate goal was  to have                                                               
no  registries.   She then  referred to  the Pioneer  Homes where                                                               
staff  enters the  race and  religion of  new residents  into the                                                               
database due  to various reasons.   She  again asked the  goal of                                                               
the bill.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:31:38 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CLAMAN intervened and  advised Representative Reinbold that                                                               
Representative  Josephson had  previously answered  her question,                                                               
which  is that  it  is not  to  have  a registry,  it  is only  a                                                               
registry where the  specific order from the  president or federal                                                               
government is, "Thou  shalt create a registry of  ethnicity."  He                                                               
explained that  creating that registry is  different from keeping                                                               
track of  ethnicity or different  features regarding  students in                                                               
school  because that  order is  that if  Alaska is  going to  get                                                               
federal funds  for schools, it  must keep this certain  amount of                                                               
data  in exchange  for receiving  federal funds.   This  bill, as                                                               
Representative  Josephson testified,  is  strictly,  if an  order                                                               
comes down from the federal  government saying "Thou shalt create                                                               
a registry  of these people"  this bill addresses  that situation                                                               
only,  and  it   does  not  go  more  broadly.     He  said  that                                                               
Representative  Josephson was  not  looking at  wiping out  every                                                               
registry.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:32:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JOSEPHSON  remarked   that   Chair  Claman   was                                                               
precisely  correct.    Legislative Legal  and  Research  Services                                                               
research  found that  none of  the entities  it quiered  reported                                                               
that they  desegregate the data  in a manner that  would identify                                                               
people based on  race, ethnicity, religion, or  country of origin                                                               
of individuals.   Basically, he  explained, that means no  one is                                                               
gathering this  data just to  say "Here's  a list of  people from                                                               
Syria that  live in Alaska."   He referred to the  celebration of                                                               
Black History  Month, and offered that  it would be an  odd thing                                                               
for the federal  government to say, that before  the nation could                                                               
celebrate Black  History Month it  needed every  African American                                                               
to enter  their names on  a registry.   He stressed that  that is                                                               
what he is trying to avoid.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
5:33:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  REINBOLD  offered  a scenario  that  the  federal                                                               
government could  decide that  a person  from Syria  or wherever,                                                               
may cause  a health  concern.   Also, she  said, "ANSWERS"  was a                                                               
federal mandate so "you can't  have a double standard here" where                                                               
the  federal government  wanted ANSWERS  to collect  a tremendous                                                               
amount of  data on Alaska's students,  which is a registry.   She                                                               
offered  that it  appears to  be a  double standard  that if  the                                                               
federal  government is  going to  ask Alaska  for people  who may                                                               
have originated from a certain  place or religion, it probably is                                                               
for  a public  safety, health  concern, or  potentially a  public                                                               
threat of some antagonists in another  country such as ISIS.  She                                                               
asked  what Representative  Josephson thought  "if it's  a public                                                               
safety concern to  people, which is a specific  group of specific                                                               
origin,  and possibly  even a  specific religion  where they  are                                                               
following the  laws of  their country and  trying to  impose them                                                               
over here."   In  the event  it is a  public safety  concern, she                                                               
asked whether that  weighs into the ability to have  some sort of                                                               
information for public safety and homeland security.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
5:35:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOSEPHSON answered  that the  federal government,                                                               
no  doubt does  that, and  he  is glad  to some  degree that  the                                                               
federal  government knows  where  people are  traveling which  is                                                               
legitimate  state and  national  security interest.   Except,  he                                                               
reiterated,  this  bill  reads  that  Alaska  does  not  need  to                                                               
participate  when  it is  solely  based  on  race with  no  other                                                               
putative  or  obvious  reason.    Research  found  that  juvenile                                                               
justice and  public assistance have  records on race, but  it was                                                               
always linked  to some other  public governmental  policy purpose                                                               
and it was not just a naked, "We  want a list of Muslims and, we,                                                               
the federal  government, insist  on it, and  please give  us that                                                               
list."  He pointed out that  this bill should not be described as                                                               
alarmist  because the  national administration,  although it  had                                                               
been tamped down a little bit  lately, said that, indeed, it does                                                               
intend to  do these things.   He explained that part  of the goal                                                               
is  that  when future  generations  look  back on  the  Thirtieth                                                               
Alaska State  Legislature and see  that the legislature  caught a                                                               
Korematsu situation,  that it made  a statement, and that  it did                                                             
something about the Korematsu situation.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
5:36:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  EASTMAN  said  Representative  Josephson  made  a                                                               
distinction  as to  whether it's  the sole  purpose of  anyone of                                                               
these individual  categories, but  it seems like  the distinction                                                               
is "too  easy of  being evaded."   For example,  he could  have a                                                               
database of religion except not  for the sake of religion because                                                               
that would  be a  violation.   Rather, he  decided that  he would                                                               
have a category  of religion because he wanted  to study minority                                                               
religions, and find ways to promoting  the fact that are not many                                                               
minority religions.  Thereby, giving  distinction to some kind of                                                               
recognition, and whether  with that type of add  on would satisfy                                                               
Representative Josephson's sole reason for prohibition.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON  responded that  these are the  kinds of                                                               
tests  courts engage  in frequently  and are  skilled in  knowing                                                               
whether something  is pretextual  or legitimate.   Presumably, he                                                               
said,  a court  would apply  a test  to something  like that  and                                                               
reach a conclusion  as to whether the interest  was legitimate or                                                               
pretextual.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
5:38:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  EASTMAN said  he understands  that a  court would                                                               
try to  identify the intent,  but he was specifically  asking the                                                               
sponsor how  that scenario lines up  with his intent for  how the                                                               
bill would  be used.   He asked  whether he would  find it  to be                                                               
legitimate or a subterfuge.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON  commented that  it would depend  on the                                                               
facts and  the circumstances,  and said he  didn't want  to muddy                                                               
the water too  much but that he  had spent a fair  amount of time                                                               
looking at school  prayer litigation, and referred  to Wallace v.                                                             
Jaffree, 472 U.S.  38 (1985).  For example, he  offered, if there                                                             
was a  moment of  silence legislation,  [he would  consider] what                                                               
was  said in  committee,  and  whether this  was  really about  a                                                               
prayer in  public school.    Given that the court  had previously                                                               
said that was a violation of  the separation of church and state,                                                               
the  court  would  look  to   see  whether  there  was  something                                                               
pretextual  or whether  it was  just meant  to be  meditative and                                                               
truly a  moment of silence.   He explained that the  intention of                                                               
this bill is  to preclude these registries based  solely on race,                                                               
religion, ethnicity,  and national origin, with  no obvious other                                                               
reason  that  is  apparent  in   the  administrative  order,  the                                                               
executive order, or the law.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
5:40:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX noted  that  basically  the committee  was                                                               
reading  into this  now, even  though  no member  had offered  an                                                               
amendment,  that it  would  be based  solely  on race,  religion,                                                               
ethnicity, or  national origin.   She offered  a scenario  of the                                                               
federal  government's   concern  regarding  the  great   deal  of                                                               
terrorism  involving  Muslim  Americans   and,  as  a  matter  of                                                               
national security,  it would keep  a registry.  Under  this bill,                                                               
she remarked, that would be  something the government could still                                                               
order so what was the purpose of the bill.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
5:41:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOSEPHSON answered  that Alaska  obviously cannot                                                               
stop  the  federal government  from  doing  anything, but  Alaska                                                               
could watch  the federal government  and someone  could intervene                                                               
by seeking an injunction stating  that the federal government was                                                               
painting every Muslim  in Alaska with the same brush,  and it was                                                               
against the  law in  Alaska [in  the event  this bill  is enacted                                                               
into law]. Or  perhaps, people would cower in the  same manner as                                                               
when Japanese  Americans were rounded  up by not responding.   He                                                               
pointed to the "very poignant bench"  in Pocket Park, next to the                                                               
Terry Miller  Building, which expresses  shame for the  fact that                                                               
the citizens of  Juneau watched this happen,  but he acknowledged                                                               
that  perhaps there  was nothing  they could  do about  it.   The                                                               
bench was  designed to mark that  sort of concern.   He expressed                                                               
that the  federal government could  do something, but  it doesn't                                                               
mean that Alaskans must follow.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
5:42:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   LEDOUX  related   that   she   hates  to   sound                                                               
politically incorrect,  but she pointed to  "national origin" and                                                               
offered  a scenario  of this  country being  at war  with another                                                               
country.  Mr. Korimatsu was  an American citizen and this doesn't                                                               
just apply to American citizens,  and she offered her belief that                                                               
it might  be relevant  when at  war with  another nation  to know                                                               
where those people live in America.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  KELLEY replied  that nothing  in this  bill prevents  Alaska                                                               
from aiding  in keeping  track of  the nation's  citizenship, but                                                               
national origin is the issue.   For example, Mr. Korimatsu was an                                                               
American citizen  and probably shouldn't  have been  considered a                                                               
threat, but  there would  be no  record that  he was  of Japanese                                                               
ancestry.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:43:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  REINBOLD asked  whether Representative  Josephson                                                               
has any problem with the  federal government using state or local                                                               
resources to track groups such as ISIS.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOSEPHSON  responded  that   he  does  want  ISIS                                                               
tracked and has no problem with that.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  REINBOLD  described  the state's  most  important                                                               
mandate as  public safety,  and the  delicate balance  in privacy                                                               
rights  and   public  safety,  and   that  she   understands  the                                                               
government's  need  to know  the  perpetrators  and the  targets.                                                               
World history  has shown religions  persecuted in the  past, such                                                               
as the Jewish religion or  Christians, and if religions are being                                                               
persecuted, possibly  by another religion, the  important concept                                                               
is where the  government intervenes to put  public protections in                                                               
place.    Possibly, she said,  the government would want  to know                                                               
who was a Christian if  they were receiving immense attacks, such                                                               
as in India.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON related that he didn't have a comment.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
5:47:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CLAMAN opened public testimony on HB 13.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
5:47:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KAYLA  EPSTEIN, advised  she  was speaking  for  herself and  she                                                               
supports the bill.   She related that she is  Jewish and is "very                                                               
sensitive"  to the  fact  that it  has never  worked  out to  the                                                               
benefit of  anyone to keep a  list of someone by  their religion.                                                               
She remarked  that she  has seen no  evidence verifying  that the                                                               
keeping of lists  of persecuted people benefited  those people in                                                               
any  manner.    Also,  she  pointed out  that  if  a  person  was                                                               
Christian and  worried about being  persecuted, she has  not seen                                                               
that  a list  would work  to their  advantage.   At the  time the                                                               
United  States was  at war  with Italy,  Japan, and  Germany, the                                                               
plight of the  Japanese people was clearly a matter  of greed and                                                               
discrimination.   At that time,  the federal government  had been                                                               
extremely careful watching these  groups before the war, watching                                                               
organizations  advocating the  destruction of  America, and  were                                                               
well aware of  the Italian, German, and  the Japanese individuals                                                               
who posed a  threat, and they were arrested.   She explained that                                                               
President  Franklin Delano  Roosevelt  had been  notified by  the                                                               
military that  the Japanese people  were of no threat,  except he                                                               
ignored that information due to  the political pressure from, for                                                               
example,  Governor Earl  Warren of  California, and  proceeded to                                                               
allow Japanese people  to be rounded up.  She  stated that she is                                                               
"totally in favor" of this bill.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
5:49:38 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  CLAMAN,  after  ascertaining  no one  wished  to  testify,                                                               
closed public testimony on HB 13.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
5:49:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE EASTMAN  surmised from  Representative Josephson's                                                               
response to Representative LeDoux that  he had decided not to put                                                               
the distinction of "citizenship" on the list.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON  advised that  he had said  the national                                                               
government is  free to do what  it will, but that  if the federal                                                               
government asked this state or  its municipalities to use assets,                                                               
treasurer  and human  resources, to  make  such a  list it  would                                                               
violate this law if  it passed.  He described this  law as a good                                                               
thing as a matter of principle.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE EASTMAN  said he thought  Representative Josephson                                                               
had made  a distinction not  to put  citizenship on this  list of                                                               
things that are not for the government's knowledge.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON replied that  the word "citizenship" was                                                               
not considered  and he was unaware  whether it was an  absence of                                                               
considering  the  word,  or  that   a  legitimate  decision  that                                                               
"citizenship" would not be included in  the list.  He opined that                                                               
it was the former, and he would have to give it some thought.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. KELLEY advised that the important  aspect of this bill is not                                                               
tracking national origins.   For example, with someone  who is an                                                               
American citizen,  there is no  interest in knowing  whether they                                                               
might be Muslim or from Syria.   Although, he said, perhaps there                                                               
is an  interest in  knowing what  citizenship someone  holds when                                                               
they arrive  in America.   For example, a current  Syrian citizen                                                               
in America on  a visa, there may be the  distinction that perhaps                                                               
there  was a  legitimate  government interest  in tracking  their                                                               
citizenship, but  not the national  origin and especially  not of                                                               
American citizens.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
5:52:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  EASTMAN  offered  a situation  where  citizenship                                                               
information may not be available,  what would be the procedure in                                                               
obtaining that  information.  He  described that it  is important                                                               
information to have, at least  statistically, as there would be a                                                               
strong correlation between national origin and citizenship.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON  responded that fundamentally it  is not                                                               
the job  of a state  to entertain such ideas.   In the  event the                                                               
federal government wanted to go  house-by-house to see who should                                                               
or  shouldn't  be   here,  those  actions  would   be  a  massive                                                               
historical chapter  for which the  federal government  would have                                                               
to account.  President Franklin  D. Roosevelt is regarded broadly                                                               
as one of  the better presidents, yet it is  widely known that he                                                               
has a  very black mark  for his treatment of  Japanese Americans.                                                               
He said,  "And as  you've noted  in a letter  to the  floor about                                                               
Korimatsu being one  of the worst decisions."   Fundamentally, he                                                             
stated,  Alaska does  not have  to be  involved in  deputizing in                                                               
order to gather that sort of information.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:54:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE EASTMAN  commented that whether deputized  or not,                                                               
citizenship  is important  to Alaska  because its  citizenship is                                                               
fundamental  to its  state  election laws  in  order to  identify                                                               
citizenship correctly.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
5:54:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE REINBOLD surmised that people  will not be able to                                                               
say "African American  or Russian American or  Greek American, or                                                               
whatever," that  it's just going  to be American if  no resources                                                               
are allowed  at the  municipality or state  level, and  the state                                                               
wouldn't have knowledge  of that information.   She asked whether                                                               
that was Representative Josephson's understanding.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOSEPHSON said,  "No."   He explained  that those                                                               
are terms  in the nomenclature  and each generation will  have to                                                               
decide its  comfort level with  that sort of terminology.   Also,                                                               
he pointed out  that Representative was talking  about how things                                                               
are spoken  in the vernacular and  that is not what  this bill is                                                               
about.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
5:55:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE REINBOLD  said she would  like to know  the bottom                                                               
line of  this bill, and  also an  explanation as to  the language                                                               
"(REAL ID Act of 2005)" on page 2, line 2.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOSEPHSON responded  that the  importance of  the                                                               
reference to  REAL ID Act is  that it speaks to  how "wonderfully                                                               
appropriate"  this bill  is placed  in  Title 44,  because it  is                                                               
about overreach.  This legislation is  akin to the REAL ID Act in                                                               
that it is designed to stop federal overreach.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON advised that the  intent of this bill is                                                               
about  the fact  that  it  flies in  the  faces  of our  Founding                                                               
Fathers to  require a list.   For example, he  advised, President                                                               
George Washington  famously spoke at the  Providence Rhode Island                                                               
Synagogue  about  the  importance  of Jewish  Americans  and  how                                                               
welcomed  they  were  as  citizens of  the  country.    President                                                               
Washington  did not  tell  the Jewish  American  citizens to  put                                                               
their  names on  a tracking  list.   This bill  was designed,  in                                                               
keeping with  President Washington,  to state  there cannot  be a                                                               
benign  registry based  solely on  race, religion,  ethnicity, or                                                               
national origin, and he stressed  that almost by definition there                                                               
must be some ill motive that is an un-American motive.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
5:57:37 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE REINBOLD described concern  that the bill stripped                                                               
local  control  by  telling  municipalities   that  even  if  its                                                               
taxpayers wanted to spend money  keeping track of an organization                                                               
such  as ISIS,  it could  not.   In  addition, she  said, she  is                                                               
concerned that  the state collects  a tremendous amount  of data,                                                               
and commented that  any data can be  used for good or  evil.  She                                                               
then  asked  whether  Representative   Josephson  would  allow  a                                                               
friendly  amendment that  in the  cases  where Alaska's  citizens                                                               
were  at  risk, if  a  list  needed  to  be compiled  to  protect                                                               
Alaska's citizens, whether he would support the amendment.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOSEPHSON  answered  "No."    First  of  all,  he                                                               
explained,  he is  not on  the  committee and  the committee  can                                                               
amend this bill  in any manner it prefers.   Secondly, he pointed                                                               
out  that he  would not  want  local governments  or factions  to                                                               
decide  to  target a  group  based  on  religion because  it  was                                                               
"freaked  out"  about a  certain  group  and  felt it  needed  to                                                               
intervene.   He described, that would  be a blemish akin  to what                                                               
President Roosevelt was stuck with for all time.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
[HB 13 was held over.]                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB200 Draft Proposed CS ver U 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Sponsor Statement 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Explanation of Changes ver U 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Sectional Analysis ver U 4.14.17.pdf HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Bill Highlights 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Sectional Analysis ver O 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Supporting Document-Washington Supreme Court Ruling 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Supporting Documents-Top 2 Primary FAQs for Candidates - Elections & Voting - WA Secretary of State 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Additional Document-Top Two Primaries Nationally 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Supporting Document-Letters 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Additional Document-Legal Opinion 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Additional Document-Leg Research Report Voter Turnout 4.14.17.pdf HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Supporting Document-Additional Letters of Support 4.14.17.pdf HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Opposing Document-Letters of Opposition 4.14.17.pdf HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Opposing Document-Letter and Articles Kenneth Jacobus April 10th, 2017 4.15.17.pdf HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Opposing Document-Letter and Article Kenneth Jacobus April 11th, 2017 4.15.17.pdf HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Amendments #1-2 4.15.17.pdf HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Amendments #1-2 HJUD Final Votes 4.15.17.pdf HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB200 Fiscal Note OOG-DOE 4.10.17.pdf HJUD 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 200
HB013 ver O 4.14.17.PDF HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 13
HB013 Sponsor Statement 4.14.17.pdf HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 13
HB013 Explanation of Changes 4.14.17.pdf HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 13
HB13 Supporting Document - Timeline for Korematsu's Resolution 2.17.17.pdf HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HSTA 2/18/2017 11:00:00 AM
HB 13
HB013 Supporting Document-Korematsu v US 4.14.17.pdf HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 13
HB013 Supporting Document-Research Document 4.14.17.pdf HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 13
HB013 HJUD PowerPoint Presentation 4.14.17.pdf HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 13
HB013 HJUD PowerPoint Presentation 4.14.17.pptx HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 13
HB013 Fiscal Note OOG-OMB 4.14.17.PDF HJUD 4/14/2017 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 4/15/2017 10:00:00 AM
HB 13