Legislature(2015 - 2016)CAPITOL 120

04/10/2015 01:00 PM JUDICIARY

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Audio Topic
01:07:58 PM Start
01:08:09 PM SB30
02:25:48 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ HB 109 OIL AND GAS LITIGATION SETTLEMENTS TELECONFERENCED
<Bill Hearing Canceled>
+= SB 30 MARIJUANA REG;CONT. SUBST;CRIMES;DEFENSES TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
-- Public Testimony --
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
               HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                         April 10, 2015                                                                                         
                           1:07 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Gabrielle LeDoux, Chair                                                                                          
Representative Wes Keller, Vice Chair                                                                                           
Representative Neal Foster                                                                                                      
Representative Bob Lynn                                                                                                         
Representative Matt Claman                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Charisse Millett                                                                                                 
Representative Max Gruenberg                                                                                                    
Representative Kurt Olson (alternate)                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 30(FIN)                                                                                                  
"An   Act  relating   to  controlled   substances;  relating   to                                                               
marijuana; relating  to crimes and offenses  related to marijuana                                                               
and the use of marijuana;  relating to open marijuana containers;                                                               
relating to  established villages and local  options; relating to                                                               
delinquent  minors; making  conforming amendments;  and providing                                                               
for an effective date."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD & HELD                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BILL: SB 30                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SHORT TITLE: MARIJUANA REG;CONT. SUBST;CRIMES;DEFENSES                                                                          
SPONSOR(s): JUDICIARY                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
01/23/15       (S)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
01/23/15       (S)       JUD, FIN                                                                                               
01/26/15       (S)       JUD AT 1:00 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
01/26/15       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
01/26/15       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
01/28/15       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
01/28/15       (H)       -- Companion Bill --                                                                                   
01/30/15       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                      
01/30/15       (S)       -- Meeting Postponed to Monday 2/2/2015                                                                
                         --                                                                                                     
02/02/15       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
02/02/15       (S)       -- Rescheduled from 01/30/15 --                                                                        
02/05/15       (S)       FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
02/05/15       (S)       Scheduled but Not Heard                                                                                
02/06/15       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
02/06/15       (S)       -- MEETING CANCELED --                                                                                 
02/09/15       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
02/09/15       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/09/15       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/11/15       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                      
02/11/15       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/11/15       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/13/15       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
02/13/15       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/13/15       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/16/15       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
02/16/15       (S)       -- MEETING CANCELED --                                                                                 
02/18/15       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                      
02/18/15       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/18/15       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/20/15       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
02/20/15       (S)       Moved  CSSB 30(JUD) Out of Committee                                                                   
02/20/15       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/23/15       (S)       JUD RPT CS  1DP 3AM  NEW TITLE                                                                         
02/23/15       (S)       DP: MCGUIRE                                                                                            
02/23/15       (S)       AM: COSTELLO, COGHILL, MICCICHE                                                                        
02/24/15       (S)       FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
02/24/15       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/24/15       (S)       MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                            
03/03/15       (S)       FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/03/15       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
03/03/15       (S)       MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                            
03/05/15       (S)       FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/05/15       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
03/05/15       (S)       MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                            
03/06/15       (S)       FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/06/15       (S)       -- MEETING CANCELED --                                                                                 
03/09/15       (S)       FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/09/15       (S)       -- MEETING CANCELED --                                                                                 
03/09/15       (S)       FIN AT 1:30 PM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/09/15       (S)       Departments: Environmental Conservation                                                                
03/10/15       (S)       FIN AT 1:30 PM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/10/15       (S)       Departments: Environmental Conservation                                                                
03/11/15       (S)       FIN AT 1:30 PM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/11/15       (S)       -- Public Testimony --                                                                                 
03/12/15       (S)       FIN AT 1:30 PM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/12/15       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
03/12/15       (S)       MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                            
03/13/15       (S)       FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/13/15       (S)       -- MEETING CANCELED --                                                                                 
03/13/15       (S)       FIN AT 1:30 PM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/13/15       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
03/13/15       (S)       MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                            
03/14/15       (S)       FIN AT 10:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                     
03/14/15       (S)       -- MEETING CANCELED --                                                                                 
03/18/15       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
03/18/15       (H)       <Bill Hearing Canceled>                                                                                
03/23/15       (S)       FIN RPT CS 1DP 3NR 3AM  NEW TITLE                                                                      
03/23/15       (S)       DP: MACKINNON                                                                                          
03/23/15       (S)       NR: BISHOP, DUNLEAVY, HOFFMAN                                                                          
03/23/15       (S)       AM: KELLY, MICCICHE, OLSON                                                                             
03/23/15       (S)       FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                      
03/23/15       (S)       Moved  CSSB 30(FIN) Out of Committee                                                                   
03/23/15       (S)       MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                            
03/25/15       (S)       FIN CS ADOPTED Y16 N4                                                                                  
03/30/15       (S)       TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                                                                     
03/30/15       (S)       VERSION: CSSB 30(FIN)                                                                                  
03/31/15       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
03/31/15       (H)       JUD, FIN                                                                                               
04/06/15       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/06/15       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
04/06/15       (H)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
04/07/15       (H)       JUD AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/07/15       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
04/07/15       (H)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
04/08/15       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/08/15       (H)       Scheduled but Not Heard                                                                                
04/09/15       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
04/09/15       (H)       <Bill Hearing Canceled>                                                                                
04/10/15       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CYNTHIA FRANKLIN, Director                                                                                                      
Alcoholic Beverage Control Board (ABC Board)                                                                                    
Department of Commerce, Community, and Economic Development                                                                     
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the hearing on CSSB 30(FIN), offered                                                              
testimony and answered questions.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
KACI SCHROEDER, Assistant Attorney General                                                                                      
Criminal Division                                                                                                               
Department of Law (DOL)                                                                                                         
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION  STATEMENT:    During   the  hearing  on  CSSB  30(FIN),                                                             
answered questions.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
AMY SALTZMAN, Staff                                                                                                             
Senator Lesil McGuire                                                                                                           
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing of CSSB 30(FIN), offered                                                             
side-by-side comparisons of Versions T and Q.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
JORDAN SHILLING, Staff                                                                                                          
Senator John Coghill                                                                                                            
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing of CSSB 30(FIN), offered                                                             
side-by-side comparisons of Versions T and Q.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
JORDAN WELLINGTON, Attorney                                                                                                     
Law Office of Vincente Sederburg                                                                                                
The Marijuana Law Firm                                                                                                          
Denver, Colorado                                                                                                                
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on CSSB 30(FIN), offered                                                             
testimony and answered questions.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
HILARY MARTIN, Attorney                                                                                                         
Legislative Legal and Research Services                                                                                         
Legislative Affairs Agency                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Answered questions  during the  hearing on                                                             
CSSB 30(FIN).                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MATT DAVIDSON                                                                                                                   
Division of Juvenile Justice                                                                                                    
Department of Health & Social Services                                                                                          
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION  STATEMENT:   During  the hearing  on  CSSB 30,  offered                                                             
testimony and answered questions regarding juvenile records.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
RON LESTER                                                                                                                      
Delta, Alaska                                                                                                                   
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Offered testimony  during  the hearing  on                                                             
CSSB 30(FIN).                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
TOM PATMOR                                                                                                                      
Citizens for Rights on Marijuana                                                                                                
Clam Gulch, Alaska                                                                                                              
POSITION  STATEMENT:    Testified  during  the  hearing  on  CSSB                                                             
30(FIN).                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CAPTAIN ANNA YOUNG                                                                                                              
Cordova, Alaska                                                                                                                 
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Offered testimony  during  the hearing  on                                                             
CSSB 30(FIN).                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
KEN ALPER, Director                                                                                                             
Tax Division                                                                                                                    
Department of Revenue                                                                                                           
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Offered testimony  during  the hearing  on                                                             
CSSB 30(FIN).                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:07:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GABRIELLE  LEDOUX  called  the  House  Judiciary  Standing                                                             
Committee meeting to order at  1:07 p.m.  Representatives Keller,                                                               
Lynn,  Claman, and  LeDoux were  present  at the  call to  order.                                                               
Representative Foster arrived as the meeting was in progress.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  advised that the  committee will  specifically hear                                                               
testimony comparing  the crimes  in CSSB  30(FIN), Version  T and                                                               
House CS for CS for Senate Bill 30(JUD), Version Q.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:08:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX announced  that the only order of  business would be                                                               
CS FOR  SENATE BILL NO.  30(FIN), "An Act relating  to controlled                                                               
substances;  relating  to  marijuana;   relating  to  crimes  and                                                               
offenses related to marijuana and  the use of marijuana; relating                                                               
to open  marijuana containers;  relating to  established villages                                                               
and  local   options;  relating  to  delinquent   minors;  making                                                               
conforming amendments; and providing for an effective date."                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
        SB  30-MARIJUANA REG;CONT. SUBST;CRIMES;DEFENSES                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:09:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CYNTHIA  FRANKLIN,  Director,  Alcoholic Beverage  Control  Board                                                               
(ABC  Board), Department  of  Commerce,  Community, and  Economic                                                               
Development, referred  to the ABC Board  and agency's perspective                                                               
regarding  Versions  T  and  Q, and  advised  she  would  address                                                               
criminal  provisions  relating  to  marijuana  in  light  of  the                                                               
initiative.   The document,  "Preliminary Considerations  for the                                                               
Implementation  of AS  17.38,"  is located  on  the agency's  web                                                               
site,  she  pointed  out.     She  explained  that  the  document                                                               
addresses how the criminal provisions  relating to conduct around                                                               
marijuana will work  and informed that committee  that alcohol is                                                               
not  in the  Controlled Substances  Act.   She further  explained                                                               
that  all of  the rules  around alcohol  are contained  in Alaska                                                               
Statute Title 4,  except that alcohol crimes  relating to driving                                                               
are under Title  28.  She opined that having  all of the criminal                                                               
provisions in one place allows  the ABC Board and its enforcement                                                               
officers to  serve as de  facto experts on  what is, and  is not,                                                               
allowed around alcohol  in the State of Alaska.   She stated that                                                               
in the  event a  Marijuana Control Board  is created,  the agency                                                               
can serve  the same  role regarding  the regulation  of marijuana                                                               
and  what is,  and is  not,  allowed.   In assigning  all of  the                                                               
criminal  provisions  in one  place,  side-by-side,  next to  the                                                               
statutes  enacted by  the voters  will assist  in the  laws being                                                               
clear for the general public and law enforcement officers.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:11:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FRANKLIN pointed  out that  the voters  stated in  AS 17.38,                                                               
their  intention   that  marijuana  is  a   legal  substance  for                                                               
individuals 21 years of age and  older, which puts it in the same                                                               
category  as  alcohol as  a  legal  but dangerous  and  regulated                                                               
substance.  She conveyed that  requiring law enforcement to start                                                               
with  the basis  that the  substance is  illegal is  both contra-                                                               
indicated  in the  initiative and  confusing for  law enforcement                                                               
and members of  the public.  The conduct around  the substance is                                                               
what the  laws will  be designed  to address.   She  offered that                                                               
under  the  split scheme  of  having  marijuana as  a  controlled                                                               
substance in Title  11, and also a legal  and regulated substance                                                               
in Title 17,  forces an officer into the  position of determining                                                               
whether or  not he/she is  looking at  a pile of  legal regulated                                                               
marijuana or a  pile of illegal marijuana.  She  extended that it                                                               
is not a  concern of the ABC  Board that it can't be  done, as it                                                               
can, and  if no criminal bill  is passed that will  be the status                                                               
of  the law  in this  state.   The  concern is  that there  would                                                               
potentially  be  a  lack  of   enforcement  over  conduct  around                                                               
marijuana that  is illegal.   She pointed out that  in discussing                                                               
goals set  forth in the  James M. Cole, Deputy  Attorney General,                                                               
U.S.  Department  of  Justice, 2/19/13  memo  entitled  "Guidance                                                               
Regarding Marijuana  Enforcement," and  how to  strictly regulate                                                               
this substance  and stay on the  right side of the  James M. Cole                                                               
Memo, the  ABC Board should be  able to enforce the  rules and if                                                               
the  rules are  confusing  and difficult  to  enforce, the  state                                                               
risks  a lack  of enforcement  that could  lead to  public safety                                                               
issues.   She articulated that  as set  forth in the  ABC Board's                                                               
preliminary considerations document, the  ABC Board has taken the                                                               
position that  the most desirable  approach is to place  a series                                                               
of criminal  offenses in one  place in Title 17,  which proclaims                                                               
and announces  to the world what  is, and is not,  allowed around                                                               
marijuana subsequent to the voter initiative.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:14:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FRANKLIN responded  to Chair  LeDoux  that the  "Preliminary                                                               
Considerations for  the Implementation  of AS 17.38"  document is                                                               
part of larger document and Ms. Franklin will email it to her.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:15:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   CLAMAN  commented   that  currently   there  are                                                               
marijuana offenses  as a  controlled substance in  Title 11.   He                                                               
asked  what the  criminal  offense  would be  for  more than  one                                                               
ounce, and  whether there would both  be up to one  ounce that is                                                               
legal and also a Title 17  offense that begins at over one ounce.                                                               
There  would  be no  be  Title  11  marijuana offenses,  and  all                                                               
misdemeanor and  felony marijuana offenses would  be contained in                                                               
Title 17, he surmised.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. FRANKLIN responded "Yes," and  explained the alcohol offenses                                                               
in  Title 4  apply  to  both licensees  and  non-licensees.   She                                                               
advised that  all provisions in Title  4 are not only  related to                                                               
commercial  alcoholic activities.   She  used the  example of  AS                                                               
04.16.051, which is furnishing alcohol  to a minor by someone who                                                               
does not  hold an ABC  Board license,  and AS 04.16.052,  is what                                                               
happens  when a  liquor licensee  furnishes alcohol  to a  minor.                                                               
She clarified that  the idea is that all  criminal conduct around                                                               
marijuana  would  be  contained  in  one  place,  whether  it  is                                                               
committed by someone  holding a marijuana license  or someone who                                                               
does not.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN  surmised that also contained  in Title 17,                                                               
would be the  specification that up to one ounce,  if a person is                                                               
over  21, is  now legal  and  above that  would be  illegal.   He                                                               
further  surmised   it  would  clearly  have   that  first  ounce                                                               
consistent  with the  initiative and  would be  clearly legal  as                                                               
articulated in the statute.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FRANKLIN  answered  in the  affirmative,  and  advised  that                                                               
essentially it  would state  where a person  gets beyond  what is                                                               
contained in  the initiative  as being legal.   She  advised that                                                               
the  term  used   in  the  previous  version  of   the  bill  was                                                               
"misconduct  involving marijuana,"  and  it  would described  how                                                               
that  offense  is committed  and  include  the various  types  of                                                               
conduct  that  would run  a  person  into  that problem  and  the                                                               
associated penalty.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:18:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LEDOUX  noted  that  under the  initiative  a  person  can                                                               
possess one ounce purchased from a  vendor, and a person can also                                                               
possess up to  six marijuana plants which can grow  more than one                                                               
ounce.   She  questioned whether  it  makes sense  that a  person                                                               
cannot  purchase more  than one  ounce  and it  becomes either  a                                                               
fairly  hefty misdemeanor  or maybe  a felony,  but a  person can                                                               
grow as much as  they can grow.  In that regard,  a person with a                                                               
"green  thumb"  could  produce  quite  a  bit  and  someone  else                                                               
couldn't produce any,  and that the criminal laws  are based upon                                                               
that issue.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FRANKLIN responded  that the  legislature is  guided by  the                                                               
initiative  and the  initiative decriminalizes  possession of  an                                                               
ounce outside  a person's home.   [The initiative] then  turns to                                                               
what  a person  can do  inside of  their home  and discusses  the                                                               
growing provisions  and does provide  that a person  is permitted                                                               
to possess  the harvest of their  grow.  She opined  it does vary                                                               
because Alaskans  have had the  right to  grow in their  own home                                                               
for many, many  years, and that the amount of  the harvest varies                                                               
tremendously  from  thumb-to-thumb.    She  further  opined  that                                                               
criminal penalties would  have to be written  that are structured                                                               
around what the  voters have voted for.   Although, she answered,                                                               
it doesn't  necessarily make sense  and when compared  to alcohol                                                               
where a person can virtually have  any quantity unless in a local                                                               
option community,  it would make  these criminal  provisions look                                                               
very different.   She remarked that  she is taking the  advice of                                                               
colleagues in  Colorado who  said, when  embarking into  this new                                                               
territory  the  legislature   should  start  conservatively  with                                                               
strict rules and  regulations that later on can  be reviewed once                                                               
it is determined  how the rules are working.   She said she takes                                                               
the  initiative literally,  and  when it  talks about  possession                                                               
outside of  a person's home  and puts the  one ounce limit  on it                                                               
that it  makes sense  the rules  would have  to say  what happens                                                               
when  a person  possesses more  than one  ounce outside  of their                                                               
home.   She  pointed  out  that it  is  the legislature's  policy                                                               
determination in  setting the penalties  and posited that  if the                                                               
legislature  says, as  the voters  have  said, the  limit on  the                                                               
amount a person can possess outside  their own home is one ounce,                                                               
there must  be a corresponding  provision to inform  what happens                                                               
when a person possesses more than one ounce.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:22:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  extended that the  initiative does not read  that a                                                               
person can only  possess an ounce outside of a  person's own home                                                               
as it  just reads  an ounce.   She  put forth  a scenario  of the                                                               
police  coming into  a person's  home for  some other  reason and                                                               
finds two  ounces of marijuana  with no  plant.  The  person then                                                               
advises that  the plant died and  the two ounces is  harvest from                                                               
their plant.   Practically, she asked, what happens  and how does                                                               
Ms. Franklin anticipate that working inside the home.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FRANKLIN replied  that it  is a  difficult question  because                                                               
inside  the home  is  the  exact area  the  Alaska Supreme  Court                                                               
addressed  in Ravin  v. State  of  Alaska, 537  P.2d 494  (Alaska                                                             
1975),  and in  Noy  v.  State of  Alaska,  83  P.3d 538,  544-45                                                             
(Alaska Ct. App. 2003), in  which the Alaska Supreme Court deemed                                                               
Alaskans have a constitutional right  of privacy to possess up to                                                               
four ounces of marijuana in their  own home.  She described it as                                                               
a difficult  task to set those  limits and the legislature  has a                                                               
tough  job in  terms of  creating offenses  around what  a person                                                               
can, and  cannot, possess.   She advised  that the ounce  she was                                                               
speaking  of  was   literally  the  ounce  referred   to  in  the                                                               
initiative, which is legal for adults  to possess up to one ounce                                                               
outside the  home.  She warned  the committee to be  careful when                                                               
legislating the amount adults can  possess inside their home when                                                               
cross-referencing  the Alaska  Supreme Court  precedent that  has                                                               
been created and upheld in this state.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:24:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  asked whether Ms.  Franklin reviews  the initiative                                                               
as regulating one ounce outside of  the home as opposed to inside                                                               
the home.   She surmised  that it  includes inside the  home also                                                               
except that  with the marijuana  plant a person can  possess more                                                               
as long as it came from that particular marijuana plant.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. FRANKLIN  responded that there  are three areas:  outside the                                                               
home; inside  the homes  with respect  to growing  and harvesting                                                               
the  plants;  and inside  the  home  with  respect to  the  rules                                                               
established  by the  Alaska Supreme  Court in  the Ravin  and Noy                                                           
decisions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:25:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LEDOUX  asked  Ms.  Kaci Schroeder  how,  in  a  practical                                                               
manner, the questions she asked  Ms. Franklin would work with the                                                               
Department of Law (DOL).                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:26:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KACI  SCHROEDER, Assistant  Attorney General,  Criminal Division,                                                               
Department of  Law (DOL), summarized Chair  LeDoux's questions as                                                               
to when a person possesses two  ounces in their home and for some                                                               
reason law enforcement ...                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LEDOUX restated  the scenario  in  that a  person has  two                                                               
ounces in their home with no marijuana plant.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. SCHROEDER responded that it  is difficult to offer a straight                                                               
answer because  there is  the Noy  decision that  re-enforced the                                                             
four  ounces  and  it  is  still good  law.    She  advised  that                                                               
subsequent to the 2006 Noy  decision, the legislature changed the                                                             
law  again as  it had  new findings  regarding how  bad marijuana                                                               
was.    The  legislature  then  lowered the  limit  and  did  not                                                               
specify, so it  applies inside the home.  As  a practical matter,                                                               
she stated,  she does not  know whether  a trooper would  make an                                                               
issue out of  Chair LeDoux's scenario.  She related  that the law                                                               
on the  books, in December, has  not been challenged so  there is                                                               
some conflict between case law and what is on the books.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:27:14 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX asked whether the Noy decision was four ounces.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SCHROEDER  advised  that it  re-enforced  the  legislature's                                                               
determination of four ounces.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  pointed out  that a  marijuana plant  could produce                                                               
more  than four  ounces  and  a person  can  possess  all of  the                                                               
harvest.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. SCHROEDER  agreed in  that the initiative  reads there  is no                                                               
threshold as  long as a  person is cultivating and  harvesting it                                                               
from their own plant.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LEDOUX surmised  that if  a  person wants  more than  four                                                               
ounces there had better be a plant in the house.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. SCHROEDER  indicated that when  a person  has a plant  it has                                                               
been referred to as a justification.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:27:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN stated that  the initiative reads one ounce                                                               
and  six plants.   He  asked whether  that means  a person  could                                                               
possess an  ounce on the  street, and when  at home could  add to                                                               
the same  ounce with whatever  the person  can gather off  of six                                                               
plants.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SCHROEDER answered  in the  affirmative as  that is  how DOL                                                               
reads the initiative.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:28:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX advised  that Amy Saltzman and  Jordan Shilling will                                                               
take the  committee through the bills,  particularly the side-by-                                                               
sides with  respect to penalties  and tell the committee,  in the                                                               
event it decides  to take marijuana out  of controlled substance,                                                               
what might need to be done to tweak the bill a bit.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:29:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
AMY  SALTZMAN,   Staff,  Senator  Lesil  McGuire,   Alaska  State                                                               
Legislature, [Available to testify and answers questions.]                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
JORDAN  SHILLING,  Staff,  Senator  John  Coghill,  Alaska  State                                                               
Legislature, [Available to testify and answers questions.]                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:29:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN  referred to a  comparison document provided  in the                                                               
committee  member's packets  and  advised that  the document  was                                                               
prepared so  the committee could  review the  differences between                                                               
the  version passed  out of  Senate Judiciary  Standing Committee                                                               
[Version  Q],  and  the  version passed  out  of  Senate  Finance                                                               
Committee [Version  T] with  regard to  the crimes  and penalties                                                               
assessed.   She  pointed  to  the document  and  that the  Senate                                                               
Finance Committee version, class C felony crimes, include:                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     *    Possesses 16 or more ounces of useable marijuana                                                                      
          outside of the home.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     *    Possesses 25 or more plants.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     *    Furnishes marijuana twice within five years to a                                                                      
          person under 21 years of age.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN  stated the penalty is  a fine of up  to $50,000 and                                                               
jail time of  zero to five years.  The  Senate Judiciary Standing                                                               
Committee version started  its highest penalty crimes  at class A                                                               
misdemeanor crimes, include:                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     *    Possesses   25    or   more    marijuana   plants,                                                                    
          manufacturing more than six marijuana plants.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:30:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX asked how a person manufactures a plant.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN responded that it is the cultivation process ...                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. SHILLING  replied that growing  a plant is excluded  from the                                                               
definition  of manufacture.   He  stated that  Ms. Hilary  Martin                                                               
could speak to the nuances.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:31:38 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN continued  reading  the  Senate Judiciary  Standing                                                               
Committee   version's  highest   penalty   crimes   at  class   A                                                               
misdemeanor crimes, include:                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     *    Delivers  or transports  more  than  one ounce  of                                                                    
          usable marijuana or more than six marijuana                                                                           
          plants.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN  advised the above  is in reference  to transporting                                                               
in  a  person's  vehicle  or  delivering  to  another  person  by                                                               
carrying  these out  in the  public or  transporting by  vehicle.                                                               
She  continued  that  the  Senate  Judiciary  Standing  Committee                                                               
version's highest  penalty crimes at class  A misdemeanor crimes,                                                               
include:                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     *    Delivers  any  amount  of marijuana  to  a  person                                                                    
          under the age of 21.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     *    Manufactures  a  marijuana   concentrate  using  a                                                                    
          volatile or explosive gas.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     *    Delivers  or  transports  an   ounce  or  less  of                                                                    
          marijuana or six plants or less for remuneration                                                                      
          or barter.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:32:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  referred to  remuneration or  barter and  said that                                                               
barter is part of remuneration.   She offered a scenario in which                                                               
a  person gives  six marijuana  plants for  six bottles  of wine,                                                               
therefore, the person is paid.   She asked why the term barter is                                                               
included and how barter differs from remuneration.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN advised that the  issue was debated by the committee                                                               
and was an amendment as to the definition of barter.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SHILLING  said  that remuneration  strictly  means  monetary                                                               
gain, currency.   He explained  that the intent of  adding barter                                                               
is because there  are other things that have value  and barter is                                                               
to include the exchange of goods and services.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:33:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LEDOUX  asked Mr.  Shilling  how  he determined  that  the                                                               
definition  of remuneration  only  includes money.   She  further                                                               
asked  whether it  was  a Webster's  Dictionary  definition or  a                                                               
definition  in law  as his  definition  is not  the common  place                                                               
definition of remuneration.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SHILLING  conveyed  that   Legislative  Legal  and  Research                                                               
Services  advised it  is strictly  money, and  offered to  review                                                               
Black's Law  Dictionary, or  that Chair  LeDoux could  speak with                                                               
Ms. Hilary Martin.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN added  that the  original  language used  "benefit"                                                               
which was  too broad for  most people  to interpret, and  that it                                                               
was typically  used within the  Alaska Statutes.  The  intent was                                                               
to get  it a little narrower,  however, barter is a  fairly broad                                                               
term, she noted.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:34:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX asked whether "benefit" is from the initiative.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SHILLING  answered  that  the   initiative  only  refers  to                                                               
"remuneration."   "Benefit"  is  the term  Legislative Legal  and                                                               
Research  Services used  when initially  drafting the  bill.   He                                                               
opined  that  is  the  form  it took  for  a  of  couple  working                                                               
committee   substitutes   in   the  Senate   Judiciary   Standing                                                               
Committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:35:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN continued with the  presentation and referred to the                                                               
Senate Finance Committee version of CSSB 30 [Version T]                                                                         
class A misdemeanor crimes, include:                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
       *    Delivers or transports more than one ounce of                                                                       
          marijuana or more than six marijuana plants.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     *    Possesses 3 but less than 16 ounces of marijuana                                                                      
          outside of the home or 12-24 plants.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
       *    Delivers any amount of marijuana to a person                                                                        
          under 21 years of age.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
        *    Delivers or transports an ounce or less of                                                                         
        marijuana or six plants or less for remuneration                                                                        
          or barter.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
       *    Manufactures a marijuana concentrate using a                                                                        
          volatile or explosive gas.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     *    Brings marijuana into a correctional facility.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LEDOUX  questioned whether  there  are  provisions in  the                                                               
Senate  Finance  Committee  version  that   are  not  a  class  A                                                               
misdemeanor  within  the   Senate  Judiciary  Standing  Committee                                                               
version.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN answered in the affirmative.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  asked whether those  provisions are in  any [class]                                                               
within the Senate Judiciary Standing Committee version.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN  replied that within  the Senate  Judiciary Standing                                                               
Committee  version  marijuana  was removed  from  the  controlled                                                               
substances and  it did  address the  issue of  bringing marijuana                                                               
into a correctional  facility.  She opined that it  wasn't put on                                                               
the crime  schedule but it may  have ended up there  if there had                                                               
been further  debate.   She remarked that  it was  recommended by                                                               
DOL that it  remain as a class A misdemeanor.   She conveyed that                                                               
the possession  crimes are the  significant difference  by adding                                                               
the amounts,  thresholds, and  limits on  the 3-16  ounces, which                                                               
was  the heart  of the  Senate Finance  Committee debate  when it                                                               
added these crimes in the schedules.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:36:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  quiered whether they  were not crimes at  all under                                                               
the Senate [Judiciary Standing Committee] version.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN explained that the  only crime the committee had was                                                               
possessing 25  plants or more  which was a  class C felony.   She                                                               
noted  it  was  moved  from  a  class  C  felony  to  a  class  A                                                               
misdemeanor in the Senate Judiciary Standing Committee version.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  asked whether 3-16  ounces of marijuana  outside of                                                               
the home or 12-24, was  anything in the Senate Judiciary Standing                                                               
Committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN  responded  that  the   committee  had  a  class  A                                                               
misdemeanors  as  possession  of  25  or  more,  and  a  class  B                                                               
misdemeanor as  possessing more than  6 but less than  25 plants.                                                               
Ms.  Saltzman   replied  to  Chair  Ledoux   that  the  committee                                                               
struggled  in attempting  to determine  the  best definition  for                                                               
usable  marijuana.    She  advised   that  the  Senate  Judiciary                                                               
Standing  Committee  and  the  Senate  Finance  Committee  worked                                                               
together  in  attempting  to ascertain  a  clear  definition  for                                                               
[usable  marijuana], which  was  achieved in  the Senate  Finance                                                               
Committee version.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  pointed out that the  [usable marijuana] definition                                                               
would  be relevant  not only  for 3-16  ounces of  marijuana, but                                                               
also one ounce.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN answered in the affirmative.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:38:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN continued  her presentation  and  advised that  the                                                               
Senate Judiciary Standing Committee  version, class B misdemeanor                                                               
crimes, include:                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
        *    Possesses, purchases, displays, delivers or                                                                        
            transports more than 6, but less than 25                                                                            
          marijuana plants.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     *    Delivers more than one ounce of usable marijuana                                                                      
        in a public place or possesses, or delivers more                                                                        
          than six plants.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN stated  that the  Senate Finance  Committee version                                                               
[class B misdemeanor crimes] include:                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     *    Possesses  more  than  two, but  less  than  three                                                                    
          ounces of usable marijuana outside of the home.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     *    Possesses seven to eleven plants.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:39:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN   said  with  regard  to   violations,  the  Senate                                                               
Judiciary Standing Committee version,  violations punishable by a                                                               
fine of $300, include:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     *    Manufacture  marijuana  in  a location  where  the                                                                    
          plants are in public view or not secure from                                                                          
          unauthorized access or on property not in                                                                             
          possession of the person or without consent of                                                                        
          the property owner.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     *    Are under  21 and  attempts to  purchase marijuana                                                                    
          with    false    identification    or    otherwise                                                                    
          misrepresents the person's age.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN  said  the   Senate  Judiciary  Standing  Committee                                                               
version, violations punishable by a fine of $100, include:                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     *    Are under 18 and  possesses, uses, or displays any                                                                    
          amount of marijuana.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     *    Are over 21  and use any amount of  marijuana in a                                                                    
          public place.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     *    Are between the ages of  18-20 and use, display or                                                                    
          possess one ounce or less of marijuana.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN  clarified  that  the  drafting  language  of  some                                                               
sections in  the Senate Judiciary Standing  Committee version are                                                               
convoluted  as  there  were  issues  in  putting  the  initiative                                                               
language  into misdemeanor  crimes, and  attempting to  replicate                                                               
the initiative language  of delivery, display, and  possess.  She                                                               
indicated the  committee attempted  to put  that language  in the                                                               
bill for clarity  sake, but it made the  language more confusing.                                                               
Therefore,  she pointed  out, some  of the  language needs  to be                                                               
cleaned up.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:40:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN referred  to the  Senate Finance  Committee version                                                               
wherein violations punishable by a fine up to $300 include:                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     *    Possesses over one ounce but less than two ounces                                                                     
          of marijuana outside the home.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     *    Consumes marijuana in a public place.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
       *    Grows marijuana in public view or on someone                                                                        
          else's property without their consent.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     *    Uses marijuana while operating a vehicle.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
       *    As a minor, possesses less than two ounces of                                                                       
          marijuana or consume any amount of marijuana.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:41:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX referred to the  Senate Judiciary Standing Committee                                                               
version of the non-controlled approach,  and asked Ms. Saltzman's                                                               
recommendations  in  incorporating  some of  the  Senate  Finance                                                               
Committee version.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN stated  it would be best to create  a hybrid if that                                                               
is  the   direction  the   House  Judiciary   Standing  Committee                                                               
preferred.    She  offered  that  the  Senate  Finance  Committee                                                               
version  clarifies the  definition of  marijuana.   She indicated                                                               
that another policy  call the committee might consider  is in the                                                               
Senate  Finance  Committee version  wherein  Tetrahydrocannabinol                                                               
(THC) was  removed from the  IIIA controlled substances,  and put                                                               
into  VIA  controlled  substances,  which is  the  definition  of                                                               
marijuana in the  controlled substances.  She stated it  is up to                                                               
the  committee  to  consider  whether  it  prefers  removing  THC                                                               
entirely  from  the  IIIA controlled  substances,  or  where  the                                                               
committee would like to put marijuana in the future.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:42:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN,   in  response  to  Chair   LeDoux,  advised  that                                                               
Tetrahydrocannabinol  (THC)  is  listed in  the  IIIA  controlled                                                               
substance schedule and ...                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX asked "as opposed to the Sec. 6."                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN  answered in the  affirmative, and advised  that the                                                               
confusion  was discussed  with DOL,  who indicated  they are  not                                                               
sure what  it is  defining, and  what is  the definition  of THC.                                                               
She  indicated that  DOL considered  putting it  in to  deal with                                                               
synthetic THC,  rather than organic  THC.  Although,  she opined,                                                               
since the  definition is so unclear  there is the issue  that the                                                               
committee could be making all  of marijuana illegal because there                                                               
is  no  marijuana without  THC.    In  that regard,  removing  it                                                               
entirely from  IIIA controlled substances  might be an  option to                                                               
consider, or possibly moving it to another place, she offered.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:43:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN continued  her presentation  and  advised that  the                                                               
sale  of  concentrates  section was  added  in  Senate  Judiciary                                                               
Standing Committee  and amended in the  Senate Finance Committee,                                                               
wherein it  reads that a  person could  only sell five  grams per                                                               
transaction.   The  Senate Judiciary  Standing Committee  version                                                               
reads five  grams total, which  is not possible to  track because                                                               
the initiative  prohibits any  sort of  tracking system  of sale.                                                               
She  related  that  it  was   corrected  in  the  Senate  Finance                                                               
Committee version.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX offered  that it is questionable whether  or not the                                                               
sale  belongs in  the criminal  bill as  opposed to  letting the,                                                               
hopefully, created Marijuana Control Board deal with that.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:44:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN advised  that in  the event  the Marijuana  Control                                                               
Board  does exist,  the Senate  Finance Committee  version grants                                                               
the powers of enforcement through  Title 11 and Title 17, thereby                                                               
granting authority to follow through  with the enforcement issues                                                               
it would be tasked with.   There is a provision providing firemen                                                               
or EMS  under 21 to enter  a marijuana facility if  responding to                                                               
an  issue  which,  she  added,   the  Senate  Judiciary  Standing                                                               
Committee version supports.   She referred to  the open container                                                               
law  and  advised  it  was  changed  from  the  Senate  Judiciary                                                               
Standing Committee  version and  in the Senate  Finance Committee                                                               
version was modified  slightly.  With reference  to the CourtView                                                               
records  for juveniles,  Ms. Saltzman  advised that  staff worked                                                               
closely with  the Senate Finance  Committee and the  Alaska Court                                                               
System to be certain the  language reflected the intention of the                                                               
Senate Judiciary Standing Committee.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX referred  to juveniles and offered  her concern that                                                               
when  a person  is  joining  the military,  there  is probably  a                                                               
conviction  question regarding  a  felony or  misdemeanor, and  a                                                               
person convicted  of a felony or  misdemeanor may not be  able to                                                               
join the military.   She stated that in order  to be certain with                                                               
juveniles  that the  committee should  keep it  in the  violation                                                               
category.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:46:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN  responded  that   the  Senate  Judiciary  Standing                                                               
Committee  and Senate  Finance  Committee  debated keeping  these                                                               
records  off  of CourtView  once  the  cases  were closed.    She                                                               
explained that the  intent was not prohibiting any  sort of life-                                                               
long decision that a juvenile might damage.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  advised her concern  is keeping them  off CourtView                                                               
so  the public,  when  they  have nothing  better  to  do in  the                                                               
evening, cannot see a juvenile's  [record].  She remarked that if                                                               
the committee  wants to  be certain  it is  not having  an impact                                                               
forever on a  juvenile's life, it might take  eliminating it from                                                               
CourtView altogether.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN  offered that  court records  are available                                                               
at  the courthouse  regarding files  purposely  not available  on                                                               
CourtView, and  that the public  can draw wrong  conclusions from                                                               
information involving acquittals and other issues.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:48:38 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SALTZMAN  said that  the  Senate  Finance Committee  version                                                               
added delivery  of marijuana as  a crime  in order to  prohibit a                                                               
delivery  service of  marijuana, and  the committee  may want  to                                                               
consider keeping that in.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LEDOUX  asked  for clarification  regarding  the  licensed                                                               
marijuana establishment  not being allowed to  deliver its goods.                                                               
She added that  in California they do  deliver medical marijuana,                                                               
but that is something that should  be dealt with in the marijuana                                                               
regulations.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:49:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. SALTZMAN indicated that the  Senate Finance Committee version                                                               
added language for  the local option of opting out  or the option                                                               
of established villages opting back in.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:50:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN  stated it is the  House Judiciary Standing                                                               
Committee's view  that the "opt  in/opt out" topic  was addressed                                                               
in HB 75.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:51:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 1:51 to 1:53 p.m.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:53:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JORDAN WELLINGTON,  Attorney, Law  Office of  Vincente Sederburg,                                                               
The  Marijuana Law  Firm, said  his background  includes being  a                                                               
staffer in the Colorado General  Assembly, an attorney and former                                                               
bill  drafter   for  the  New  Jersey   legislature  including  a                                                               
legalization initiative.   At the end of  the legislative session                                                               
he  worked for  the Colorado  Marijuana Enforcement  Division and                                                               
assisted in  organizing its  rule making  and working  groups and                                                               
was part of a small  team that drafted regulations governing both                                                               
retail and  medical marijuana  in Colorado.   He then  joined the                                                               
Law  Firm   of  Vincente  Sederburg,  and   works  on  regulatory                                                               
compliance for  licensed marijuana businesses.   He remarked that                                                               
he   performs  policy   work  with   other  states   in  devising                                                               
responsible regulatory structures.   He noted that the discussion                                                               
[today]  is of  de-scheduling  cannabis and  whether  that is  an                                                               
appropriate way to move forward.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:55:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LEDOUX   asked  whether  he   had  any  advice   for  this                                                               
legislature based upon what Colorado did right, or wrong.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:55:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WELLINGTON  responded that a  large lesson is  the importance                                                               
of a policy perspective embracing  the challenge and setting up a                                                               
regulatory  structure  designed  to protect  public  safety,  but                                                               
doesn't go overboard.   He stated that his first  piece of advice                                                               
is  to take  a careful,  thoughtful approach  to what  is put  in                                                               
place  because there  is a  lot of  white noise  that can  create                                                               
negative consequences.  For example,  there are numerous labeling                                                               
requirements  in Colorado,  many of  which were  well intentioned                                                               
but created  so much white  noise on  the label that  Colorado is                                                               
not  conveying the  most important  information  to consumers  in                                                               
order to protect  public safety, he explained.   In drilling down                                                               
specifically on  the issue of de-schedulaization  it is important                                                               
to look holistically  at the code, and  especially criminal codes                                                               
where  the  controlled substances  come  up.   Colorado  drafters                                                               
frequently  reference that  list of  substances and  it has  been                                                               
dealing with the child abuse and  neglect statutes.  He said that                                                               
due to  the manner  the statutes are  written that  basically the                                                               
possession,  manufacture,  production,  or use  of  a  controlled                                                               
substance,  is more  or  less per  se  child abuse  in  a lot  of                                                               
situation.  Currently, there is  a situation in Colorado where it                                                               
is important  to remove cannabis  from those schedules so  it can                                                               
be  treated as  much  more  of a  totality  of the  circumstances                                                               
approach.  Obviously, he pointed out,  engaging in the use of any                                                               
substance as a  parent could present a risk to  their child as it                                                               
depends  upon  whether the  parent  does  so responsibly,  as  in                                                               
alcohol or  any other substance they  might take.  He  advised it                                                               
is important  to look at  cannabis as  a legal substance  and the                                                               
totality of  the circumstances  situation and  not just  a binary                                                               
first (indisc.) decision  that is seen in many  abuse and neglect                                                               
statutes.   He offered  that probation  is another  great example                                                               
where people who are very  sick, people with epilepsy, and people                                                               
with cancer, that are on probation  are denied the use of medical                                                               
cannabis due  to federal prohibition.   He advised  that removing                                                               
cannabis from  the schedule  allows each  individual circumstance                                                               
to  be treated  more appropriately  as opposed  to a  broad brush                                                               
stroke that the Controlled Substances Act is.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:58:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KELLER  said  that  he read  an  article  wherein                                                               
regret was expressed from Colorado  and Washington for not having                                                               
done more to  enable the regulation of  concentrates and potency,                                                               
which he assumes relates to the labeling.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WELLINGTON  responded  that  he  has  heard  concerns  about                                                               
concentrates  with the  biggest  issue being  developing a  solid                                                               
equivalency standard for sales  through the Marijuana Enforcement                                                               
Division, in order that the  discussion would be like components.                                                               
He conveyed that he has not seen  a lot of actual concerns on the                                                               
ground in  terms of people  using cannabis concentrates  as there                                                               
are  legitimate substances  a person  may want  to use,  both for                                                               
medical or recreational  purposes.  He related that  it is really                                                               
a question  of how that  line is  drawn to determine  that people                                                               
are not over aggregating large  quantities, and that his focus is                                                               
always public  safety, diversion  to other states,  and diversion                                                               
to minors.  He opined that an  important way to do that is having                                                               
reasonable sales limitations  at the counter.  In  that manner, a                                                               
person  may be  able  to  purchase just  one  ounce of  marijuana                                                               
flower at  the register, and  not necessarily an entire  ounce of                                                               
marijuana  concentrate at  the  register.   He  pointed out  that                                                               
developing  a  rational  equivalency standard  would  reduce  the                                                               
amount a person could purchase  thereby limiting diversion, which                                                               
he strongly suggested the legislature  consider if it makes sense                                                               
for Alaska.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:00:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   KELLER  indicated   that  he   was  hoping   Mr.                                                               
Wellington  could give  the  committee  the rational  equivalency                                                               
standard.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:01:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  CLAMAN  referred  to  prior  testimony  from  Ms.                                                               
Cynthia Franklin that indicated  a broad concept thereby starting                                                               
with  a clear  set of  regulations  and basic  set of  laws.   He                                                               
extended that  in going  forward they would  need to  be refined,                                                               
but to  not try and get  every detail right the  first go-around.                                                               
He asked  Mr. Wellington  for background  in terms  of Colorado's                                                               
experience  as to  how much  detail it  tried to  provide at  the                                                               
first instance, and  the timeline in which it has  gone in making                                                               
modifications or adjustments to the laws and regulations.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:02:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WELLINGTON  answered that  Colorado has  seen issues  on both                                                               
sides  of  this  kind  of  situation.   On  one  hand  there  are                                                               
regulations and statutes drafted  broadly enough that allowed the                                                               
Marijuana Enforcement Division  (Colorado's regulatory agency) to                                                               
adjust and  massage the regulations  over time  without statutory                                                               
intervention.   He  expanded  that  an example  can  be found  in                                                               
Colorado's concentrate production  regulations, which he strongly                                                               
recommends Alaska's regulatory body review  as it is an important                                                               
worker  safety  measure.    The  Colorado  Marijuana  Enforcement                                                               
Division  had  broad authority  to  regulate  various things  for                                                               
basic  efficient  and  safe administration  of  the  article,  he                                                               
remarked.    Although,  he  pointed out,  there  was  no  express                                                               
designation for  them to regulate  concentrate production  it was                                                               
able to  use the broad grant  of authority to establish  a fairly                                                               
comprehensive  set  of  regulations designed  to  protect  worker                                                               
safety around the production of concentrates.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:03:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WELLINTON  offered an example  regarding the manner  in which                                                               
packaging language was  drafted in that a  determination was made                                                               
that  serving  sizes  should  be   more  intuitive  in  a  retail                                                               
marijuana  product.   He  explained  that  without any  statutory                                                               
authority  or  direction  from   the  legislature,  the  Colorado                                                               
Marijuana  Enforcement Division  recognized it  needed to  adjust                                                               
the  structure  of  packaging and  immediately  convened  working                                                               
groups, developed a set of  rules, and implemented the rules very                                                               
quickly.     He  further  explained  that   it  created  economic                                                               
incentives to reduce  the size of cannabis within  a package, and                                                               
at the  same time  made serving sizes  more intuitive  for adults                                                               
thereby reducing accidental over ingestion.   He pointed out that                                                               
in contrast  to that, Colorado  still has problems  with labeling                                                               
requirements as  there are 20  different things per  statute that                                                               
must be  on the label.   He  advised that label  requirements are                                                               
statutory  and specific,  and they  downed the  regulators hands.                                                               
He noted  that the regulators  would like  to remove some  of the                                                               
noise and unnecessary information on  the label.  For example, he                                                               
offered, only the batch number  and producer is needed, but there                                                               
is a  host of other  tracking information that due  to Colorado's                                                               
tracking system is  duplicative and unnecessary but  is forced to                                                               
be on there.  He said  that all of that information creates white                                                               
noise  for the  consumer  and  thus reduces  the  ability to  put                                                               
special  warnings in  larger font  regarding storing  safely, not                                                               
allowing access  to minors, or  waiting two hours for  the effect                                                               
of an edible  product to come in, which  affects consumer safety.                                                               
He noted  there is  a balance  of making  sure the  regulators do                                                               
check off  all their boxes, and  not binding their hands  to very                                                               
specific  legislation in  that the  Alaska regulatory  agency has                                                               
the flexibility  to change those rules  as it sees fit.   This is                                                               
involving  policy and  just because  something works  in Colorado                                                               
doesn't mean  it will work  in Alaska.   He pointed out  that the                                                               
Alaska  legislature will  have  to design  policy  that fits  its                                                               
communities and state, and the  legislature will not get it right                                                               
the  first  time  as  no  one  does.    He  related  that  giving                                                               
regulators flexibility  within the  language to  make adjustments                                                               
to protect public safety is very important.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:06:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  CLAMAN  surmised  that  Mr.  Wellington  strongly                                                               
recommends,  in  the  area  of  labeling,  to  be  certain  as  a                                                               
legislature  that it  gives the  regulatory  entity authority  to                                                               
manage labeling in  that it doesn't come back  to the legislature                                                               
every time.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WELLINGTON agreed  with  Representative Claman's  statement,                                                               
but stated that  on the other hand the legislature  does not want                                                               
to give  the regulatory entity  flexibility on things  like child                                                               
resistant  packaging  as  everything  should be  in  child  proof                                                               
packaging with no negotiations or conversations to the contrary.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:07:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
HILARY   MARTIN,  Attorney,   Legislative   Legal  and   Research                                                               
Services, Legislative  Affairs Agency,  said she is  available on                                                               
line.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX asked what manufacturing a plants means.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARTIN responded that manufacture  is currently defined in AS                                                               
11.71.900, and reads that manufacturing  does not include growing                                                               
marijuana for personal use.   She offered that manufacturing does                                                               
include  growing, cultivating,  production,  and preparation  and                                                               
conveyed  that  manufacturing   includes  growing  marijuana  and                                                               
making  it into  a concentrate  or some  other process  to get  a                                                               
different product out it.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:08:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  asked whether [the  bill] could  [read] cultivating                                                               
and processing  marijuana as opposed to  manufacturing marijuana,                                                               
which might be easier for a person to understand.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARTIN  replied that processing  and cultivating  is included                                                               
in the definition in AS 11.71.900,  and there does not have to be                                                               
an identical  definition.   She pointed  out that  the initiative                                                               
does not define manufacture and  if Chair LeDoux wanted to adjust                                                               
the definition it is certainly a possibility.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:09:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX asked whether remuneration  is defined in any of the                                                               
statutes and whether it includes barter.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARTIN  responded that remuneration is  not currently defined                                                               
in the  statutes and is in  defined in the initiative.   She said                                                               
that a common dictionary definition  seems to imply a transaction                                                               
for money,  and it  is unclear whether  it would  include barter.                                                               
An  option to  solve the  problem  is including  a definition  of                                                               
remuneration  to make  it  clear  what it  is,  and  is not,  she                                                               
remarked.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  previously questioned the confidentiality  issue of                                                               
juvenile records and asked Mr. Matt Davidson to testify.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:10:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MATT  DAVIDSON,  Division  of  Juvenile  Justice,  Department  of                                                               
Health  &  Social  Services,  said   any  felony  or  misdemeanor                                                               
provision is  handled by the  Division of Juvenile  Justice under                                                               
AS  47.12.310 or  .315.   He  pointed out  that  the records  are                                                               
strictly  confidential and  released under  limited circumstances                                                               
so  the criminal  act under  marijuana would  remain confidential                                                               
and handled by the Division of  Juvenile Justice.  The portion of                                                               
the bill  speaking to confidentiality deals  with violations that                                                               
would become district court offenses,  basically pot tickets.  He                                                               
noted concern  in the Senate  Judiciary Standing  Committee about                                                               
those  being   on  juvenile's  records  publically   forever  and                                                               
assessable.   He  explained that  the provision  is aimed  at the                                                               
non-criminal offense,  and more  the violations that  are handled                                                               
in district court via fine.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:12:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CLAMAN  surmised that the parallel  would be minor                                                               
consuming  for  alcohol that  show  up  as district  court  minor                                                               
infraction type  offenses whereas  everything else would  go into                                                               
their juvenile record.   In that regard, he  said, with marijuana                                                               
someone  might  get  ticketed  for  possession  of  marijuana  in                                                               
district court.   In the event the person was  under 18, it would                                                               
be  a public  record unless  there was  a means  to insist  those                                                               
could  only be  prosecuted  by juvenile  authorities which  would                                                               
bring  in  the  confidentiality,  or   provisions  to  make  them                                                               
confidential.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:12:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. DAVIDSON  stated that Representative  Claman is  correct, and                                                               
there  was  discussion  regarding  the potential  of  moving  all                                                               
marijuana  offenses  or  keeping  them all  in  the  Division  of                                                               
Juvenile Justice.  He advised  that would be problematic as those                                                               
would be status  offenses and not currently going  to be criminal                                                               
acts.   He explained that a  status offense is something  that is                                                               
not illegal if  an adult, but illegal as a  juvenile.  He related                                                               
that  the Division  of Juvenile  Justice  had provided  testimony                                                               
that it  would like to  keep them out  of the criminal  system as                                                               
they are violations, and are given  a fine, which is the same for                                                               
alcohol.   He noted that there  are provisions in place  under AS                                                               
47.12.310 allowing the division  to release information, with the                                                               
consent of  the individual, to military  recruiters or employers,                                                               
but is limited to adjudications  which would be the equivalent to                                                               
being convicted for  a crime as a juvenile.   He offered that the                                                               
division is  authorized to release  those records,  and juveniles                                                               
themselves are  allowed to  release any  confidential information                                                               
from  their  juvenile  records.    He  noted  that  the  military                                                               
requires signing under oath regarding  anything a person has been                                                               
charged with, so whether it  is confidential or not, the juvenile                                                               
should  not withhold  that information.   He  remarked that  this                                                               
bill  would not  change  information a  juvenile  is required  to                                                               
release to a military recruiter.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:15:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX asked whether or not  being a minor in possession of                                                               
pot would preclude someone from getting into the military.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DAVIDSON advised  that he  researched this  issue and  under                                                               
either  version  of the  bills  a  minor  cited for  a  marijuana                                                               
violation  would not  be precluded  from  entering the  military.                                                               
Although, he commented,  the military may decide  a person having                                                               
a number of violations could be  precluded.  He remarked that the                                                               
military does have a waiver  processes whereby kids with criminal                                                               
records, and some of them  extensive, are given waivers when they                                                               
can  show  they  have  been   rehabilitated.    In  that  regard,                                                               
juveniles who  go through the  Division of Juvenile  Justice, and                                                               
sometimes  an  adjudicated  delinquent  that  spends  time  in  a                                                               
juvenile  treatment  facility are  sometimes  able  to enter  the                                                               
military, but they have to go  through a more formal process.  He                                                               
opined that the military  recruiting documentation indicates that                                                               
a  violation  such  as a  marijuana  ticket,  under-age  drinking                                                               
ticket,  fish &  game  violation, or  a  traffic violation  under                                                               
these bills  will not preclude a  juvenile.  He suggested  that a                                                               
felony or  higher misdemeanor conviction might  preclude a person                                                               
from joining the military.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX opened public testimony.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:18:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
TOM  PATMOR,  Citizens  for  Rights  on  Marijuana,  said  it  is                                                               
ridiculous to  expect kids 21  years or  younger to abide  by any                                                               
rules   unless  the   parents  are   given  some   discretion  in                                                               
disciplining  these kids.   He  related  that a  parent tries  to                                                               
spank a  kid, is reported  to the police,  and the parents  go to                                                               
jail  for disciplining  their kids.   He  remarked that  kids now                                                               
days think  they are  more grown  up than  they actually  are and                                                               
telling them they  can't do something until they are  21 ... they                                                               
hardly  ever listen  to  that as  they  want to  do  the same  as                                                               
adults.   He  pointed  out that  if they  see  their parents,  or                                                               
neighbors, or  anyone else smoking  pot they are going  to figure                                                               
they can do it  also.  He offered that more  discretion has to be                                                               
given to parents  in disciplining their kid, and  get the message                                                               
across that they shouldn't be doing these things.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:19:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. PATMOR related that as a  child his father convinced him with                                                               
the back  of his  hand that  he shouldn't  smoke cigarettes.   He                                                               
remarked that  a parent can  influence their kids  regarding what                                                               
they are  going to  do and  who they  hang out  with, but  if the                                                               
parent faces  the possibility of going  to jail over it  a lot of                                                               
parents won't even try to discipline  their kids.  He pointed out                                                               
that parental discipline will be  the main factor in deciding how                                                               
many kids use pot and its derivatives.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:20:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CAPTAIN  ANNA YOUNG  reiterated Representative  Nageak's comments                                                               
spoken on the House floor in  that there is no comparison between                                                               
marijuana and alcohol,  and they should not be  compared or ruled                                                               
on in the  same manner.  She said she  agrees with Representative                                                               
Nageak  in that  prisons are  overrun with  non-violent offenders                                                               
and the  court system  is jammed  up with  non-violent criminals.                                                               
Alaska  should try  to eliminate  this  problem and  look at  the                                                               
violence  toward women  and children  rather than  worrying about                                                               
pot smokers  that are not damaging  anyone.  She advised  that in                                                               
2000,  she  ran  for  Congress  on  the  platform  of  legalizing                                                               
industrial  hemp which  was associated  with pot  and, therefore,                                                               
went down.   She noted that Colorado has received  a lot of money                                                               
from industrial hemp and Alaska could  do the same.  She remarked                                                               
that  she would  like to  have  a choice  at the  pumps with  her                                                               
medicine, her food, and able to  grow industrial hemp and pot for                                                               
uses  that  are  well  documented.   Alaskans,  she  stated,  are                                                               
becoming disenchanted  with Juneau as  they vote for  things that                                                               
never  happen, such  as, moving  the  Capitol three  times.   The                                                               
voters spoke regarding legalizing  marijuana and she described it                                                               
as being  picked apart  whereas a  lot of the  state will  not be                                                               
eligible for  this legalization,  such as  Cordova because  it is                                                               
not in a borough, and as  a resident of Cordova rejects this part                                                               
of the planning.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:23:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KEN  ALPER,  Director,  Tax   Division,  Department  of  Revenue,                                                               
referred  to  the  discussion  regarding  legal  limits  and  the                                                               
difference  between  the various  bills.    He suggested  that  a                                                               
potential  solution  would  be  to make  volumes  in  excess,  of                                                               
whatever  the legislature  chose, subject  to the  excise tax  on                                                               
marijuana.   He explained that the  $50 tax in the  initiative is                                                               
subject to  the grower at their  first sale to a  wholesaler or a                                                               
retailer, and that tax could also be put upon the person who                                                                    
possesses an illegal amount.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:24:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX said that SB 30 was held over.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:25:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LEDOUX  advised there will be  another committee substitute                                                               
for  SB 30  based  upon the  testimony of  Ms.  Franklin and  the                                                               
overwhelming public  testimony, and  that it  will follow  in the                                                               
approach of the Senate Judiciary Standing Committee.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
2:25:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no further business before the committee, the House                                                                 
Judiciary Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:25 p.m.                                                                 

Document Name Date/Time Subjects