Legislature(2011 - 2012)CAPITOL 120

02/20/2012 01:00 PM JUDICIARY


Download Mp3. <- Right click and save file as

* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ HB 234 PICKETING AND PROTESTS AT FUNERALS TELECONFERENCED
Moved Out of Committee
+ HB 267 REAL ESTATE SALES LICENSEES TELECONFERENCED
Moved 2d CSHB 267(JUD) Out of Committee
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
+= HB 293 RIGHTS OF CRIME VICTIMS/CONTINUANCES TELECONFERENCED
Scheduled But Not Heard
+= HB 262 PASSENGER SECURITY: TRANSPORT. FACILITY TELECONFERENCED
Scheduled But Not Heard
           HB 267 - REAL ESTATE SALES LICENSEES/COM'N                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:03:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO announced  that the first order of  business would be                                                               
HOUSE  BILL  NO.  267,  "An  Act  relating  to  the  Real  Estate                                                               
Commission; and  providing for an  effective date."   [Before the                                                               
committee was CSHB 267(L&C).]                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO directed  the committee's  attention to  Amendment 1                                                               
labeled 27-LS1111\B.2, Martin, 2/17/12.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 1:04 p.m. to 1:06 p.m.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:07:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  THOMPSON  made a  motion  to  adopt Amendment  1,                                                               
labeled 27-LS1111\B.2, Martin, 2/17/12, which read:                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, following line 4:                                                                                                  
     Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                         
       "* Sec. 2. AS 08.88.305 is amended by adding a new                                                                     
     subsection to read:                                                                                                        
          (b)  A person licensed as an associate real                                                                           
     estate broker or a real estate salesperson may not be                                                                      
       employed to perform activities requiring licensure                                                                       
       under this chapter for more than one licensed real                                                                       
     estate broker."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HOLMES objected for discussion purposes.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:07:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  CATHY MUNOZ,  Alaska State  Legislature, speaking                                                               
as one  of the  joint prime  sponsors of  HB 267,  explained that                                                               
Amendment  1  doesn't change  any  language  in the  legislation;                                                               
rather, it provides clarification of  the intention stated in the                                                               
amendment.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  added that  Amendment 1  ensures that  an individual                                                               
may only  work for one broker.   Without Amendment 1,  he opined,                                                               
the existing  language in  CSHB 267(L&C)  allows a  licensed real                                                               
estate assistant  to work  for more than  one broker  because the                                                               
language  doesn't  prohibit  it.     Amendment  1  clarifies  the                                                               
legislation to  ensure that [a  licensed real estate  broker] can                                                               
only work for one broker.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  surmised  that Amendment  1  addresses                                                               
ambiguity  in Section  2 and  inquired  as to  what the  existing                                                               
Section  2 does  as  opposed to  what Section  2,  as amended  by                                                               
Amendment 1, would do.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:10:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
HILARY MARTIN,  Attorney, Legislative Legal  Counsel, Legislative                                                               
Legal and  Research Services,  Legislative Affairs  Agency (LAA),                                                               
as the drafter, explained that  the existing statute in Section 2                                                               
could have been read in different  ways.  The language could have                                                               
been  read to  allow a  licensed  assistant to  work for  someone                                                               
other  than  the broker  that  employs  that licensed  assistant.                                                               
Therefore, the  licensed assistant  could have worked  in another                                                               
broker's  office.   The existing  language could  have also  been                                                               
read to  mean that  a licensed assistant  could work  for someone                                                               
other than the  broker who employs that licensed  assistant.  The                                                               
[proposed]  language  in Section  2  clarifies  that "a  licensed                                                               
assistant  ...  can  work  as a  licensed  assistant  to  another                                                               
licensed salesperson or  associate real estate broker  as long as                                                               
they both work for the same broker".                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO related his understanding  that the original language                                                               
allowed  a  [licensed  assistant]  to  work  for  more  than  one                                                               
licensed  real estate  broker because  there was  no prohibition.                                                               
Therefore, he  opined that the  existing language  wasn't unclear                                                               
to him and  he questioned whether it was unclear  to [Ms. Martin]                                                               
and that the language restricted  the [licensed assistant to work                                                               
for] only one broker.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARTIN offered  her belief, "The original  language, it could                                                               
have  been read  that you  could work  for another  broker or  it                                                               
could  have  meant   other  than  the  broker   who  employs  the                                                               
salesperson, it could have been  referring to the licensed person                                                               
you're working for so that you  could work for a different broker                                                               
or you could work for a  different licensee that's not the broker                                                               
in your  office."   She opined that  the language  didn't clearly                                                               
state  that one  could work  for  only one  licensed real  estate                                                               
broker.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  asked whether  Amendment 1  would allow  [a licensed                                                               
assistant]  to work  for a  broker  in another  state or  another                                                               
country.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARTIN  answered that she  didn't know, but pointed  out that                                                               
it could be  dependent upon how "licensed real  estate broker" is                                                               
defined.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 1:14 p.m. to 1:16 p.m.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  questioned whether  Section 2  [in CSHB                                                               
267(L&C)] is necessary if the new Section 2 is clear.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO  pointed  out  that Section  2  [in  CSHB  267(L&C)]                                                               
consists   of  five   paragraphs.     In   further  response   to                                                               
Representative Gruenberg, Chair  Gatto agreed with Representative                                                               
Gruenberg  that  in  Section  2,   paragraphs  (1)-(5)  [of  CSHB                                                               
267(L&C)] are conjunctive rather than disjunctive.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HOLMES  related  that  in  the  House  Labor  and                                                               
Commerce Standing Committee  it was clarified that  in Section 2,                                                               
paragraphs  (1)-(5) are  conjunctive  and thus  include all  five                                                               
paragraphs.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  said that  if those  paragraphs remain,                                                               
he would then  make a motion to insert  "and" [between paragraphs                                                               
(4) and (5)]  in order to ensure there is  no question that those                                                               
are conjunctive.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:17:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  inquired  as   to  what  the  proposed                                                               
Section  2  in Amendment  1  would  do  that  Section 2  in  CSHB                                                               
267(L&C) doesn't.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MARTIN offered  her belief  that a  licensed assistant  is a                                                               
separate arrangement  and this clarifies  that one can  only work                                                               
as a licensed  assistant to a licensed salesperson  or a licensed                                                               
real estate  broker and  the licensed assistant  has to  work for                                                               
someone who works for the  same broker as the licensed assistant.                                                               
In  further  response  to Representative  Gruenberg,  Ms.  Martin                                                               
confirmed that  she believes that  [the language in Section  2 of                                                               
CSHB  267(L&C) and  the  language in  proposed  Amendment 1]  are                                                               
appropriate.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO posed  a scenario  in which  a [licensed  assistant]                                                               
working in Canada wanted to also work in Alaska.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MARTIN pointed  out that  the  individual would  have to  be                                                               
licensed in Alaska in order to work  for a broker in Alaska.  She                                                               
related  her  understanding that  the  individual  would have  to                                                               
relinquish their broker's  license [as is the case  when a broker                                                               
has a license] from another state.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  highlighted that that's  true for brokers,  but this                                                               
is a  discussion about a  licensed real estate salesperson.   The                                                               
question he  said is whether  a licensed real  estate salesperson                                                               
in  Whitehorse,  Canada,  could  fly  to  Anchorage,  Alaska,  to                                                               
request  employment   with  a  second  broker.     Therefore,  he                                                               
questioned  whether Alaska's  law would  only apply  to a  second                                                               
broker in the same state and exclude the rest of the planet.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARTIN said she believed so.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN noted  that  licensees other  than the  real                                                               
estate  broker aren't  really  employees  but rather  independent                                                               
contractors.  Therefore, he questioned  whether the term employee                                                               
should be used under employment.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO directed  attention to the language on  page 4, lines                                                               
19-22, and asked if that refers to the broker.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN reiterated  that  the  licensed real  estate                                                               
salesperson  is  an  independent   contractor  and  it  would  be                                                               
extremely  rare not  to  be.   However, a  situation  in which  a                                                               
licensed  assistant who  doesn't  perform listings  or sales  but                                                               
simply works  for a broker  may well be an  employment situation.                                                               
Those independent contractors  working for the broker  are paid a                                                               
share of the commission; the  [independent contractor] isn't paid                                                               
directly but rather  is only paid by the broker.   Therefore, the                                                               
language  needs   to  clarify   that  typically   the  employment                                                               
situation only apples to a  licensed assistant who is working for                                                               
a wage rather than a commission.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:22:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG indicated  agreement with Representative                                                               
Lynn's comments.   However, he suggested that it  would be easier                                                               
to utilize the  existing Section 2 of CSHB 267(L&C)  and amend it                                                               
as follows:                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 10, preceding "if":                                                                                           
          Insert "only"                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 22, following ";":                                                                                            
          Insert "and"                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   GRUENBERG  also   suggested   inserting  a   new                                                               
subsection to  read:  "The  person licensed as an  associate real                                                               
estate broker  or a  real estate salesperson  is not  employed to                                                               
perform activities  [requiring licensure  under this  chapter for                                                               
more than one licensed real  estate broker.]"  The aforementioned                                                               
approach  would  result  in  everything being  in  one  place  in                                                               
statute as  the current drafting  is a bit confusing,  he opined.                                                               
With regard  to Representative Lynn's  concern regarding  the use                                                               
of  the  term   "employed",  Representative  Gruenberg  suggested                                                               
seeking the advice of the industry.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:26:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DON HABEGER,  Director, Division  of Corporations,  Business, and                                                               
Professional  Licensing,  Department  of  Commerce,  Community  &                                                               
Economic  Development  (DCCED),  said  he, too,  would  defer  to                                                               
industry  in regard  to the  use of  the terms  "employed by"  or                                                               
"contracted with".                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:26:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ERROL CHAMPION,  President, Southeast  Alaska Board  of Realtors;                                                               
Member,  Board  of  Directors, Alaska  Association  of  Realtors,                                                               
informed the committee  that although he has  a broker's license,                                                               
the regulations  are written in  such a  way that since  he works                                                               
for a  broker as a licensed  independent he is referred  to as an                                                               
associate   broker.     There  can   only  be   one  broker   per                                                               
organization.    Mr.  Champion  stated that  he  could  work  for                                                               
himself and  be an independent  broker.  He then  related support                                                               
for HB 267.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  inquired as to  whether Mr. Champion is  an employee                                                               
of the broker or a contractor of the broker.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CHAMPION  clarified  that   he  is  a  licensed  independent                                                               
contractor.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO surmised then that Mr. Champion isn't an employee.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHAMPION related that in  terms of normal employee relations,                                                               
no  benefits are  provided and  he has  to function  on his  own.                                                               
However, he cautioned the committee that  may not be the case for                                                               
every broker  in Alaska  because he knew  that some  brokers have                                                               
employees, albeit these employees don't practice real estate.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO  clarified  that   the  legislation  only  addresses                                                               
associate real estate  brokers and real estate  salespersons.  He                                                               
clarified  that he  wanted to  ascertain,  under the  rules of  a                                                               
contractor, whether there are employees  who do the same thing as                                                               
the [licensed independent] contractor.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHAMPION explained that he  could employ a licensed assistant                                                               
to help him with his work.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO surmised, though, that  such an assistant wouldn't be                                                               
a  real estate  salesperson  or licensed  associate [real  estate                                                               
broker].                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CHAMPION  informed  the  committee  that  the  assistant  is                                                               
licensed  by   the  Division   of  Corporations,   Business,  and                                                               
Professional  Licensing and  has  taken training  and passed  the                                                               
test.  In  further response to Chair Gatto,  he acknowledged that                                                               
the assistant would be working for him.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  inquired as to  whether the [licensed  assistant] is                                                               
employed by the broker.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHAMPION stated that the  license of the [licensed assistant]                                                               
must  hang  in  the  office  of  the  broker.    In  response  to                                                               
Representative Lynn,  Mr. Champion  confirmed that  the [licensed                                                               
assistant] doesn't perform listings and sales.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN likened  licensed assistants  to legislative                                                               
staff  as licensed  assistants make  phone calls,  address escrow                                                               
matters,  coordinate  with  the  lender,  etcetera.    Without  a                                                               
license it's  very easy to  venture into licensed  activities, he                                                               
opined.   Therefore,  in  order to  prevent  [an assistant]  from                                                               
venturing  into  licensed  activities,   there's  a  real  estate                                                               
license and the  licensed assistant is paid a wage  rather than a                                                               
commission.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHAMPION stated his agreement.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:30:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   LYNN   further   clarified   that   a   licensed                                                               
salesperson  receives a  commission.   The  money  from the  real                                                               
estate sale  goes to  the broker  only and  the broker  gives the                                                               
licensee  a   percentage  of  that   sale,  depending   upon  the                                                               
commission  split.    He  surmised,  though,  that  the  licensed                                                               
assistant  typically  receives  a  wage not  a  commission.    He                                                               
reiterated his earlier  comments that it's very  easy for someone                                                               
to unwittingly do  something that only a real  estate licensee is                                                               
allowed to do.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO  posed an  example in  which he  decides to  sell his                                                               
house and calls a [real estate]  agent rather than a broker.  The                                                               
agent secures  a buyer for  the house.   The agent works  for the                                                               
broker and  sometimes there are  two brokers, one for  the seller                                                               
and one for the buyer.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  explained that although a  licensee may fill                                                               
out the  paperwork for  the listing, the  listing belongs  to the                                                               
broker.  Oftentimes, when a  licensee goes to a different broker,                                                               
the  listings of  the licensee  remain with  the first  broker as                                                               
does any commission that results from that listing/sale.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHAMPION  agreed with  Representative Lynn's  explanation and                                                               
reiterated  that  all listings  belong  to  the brokers  not  the                                                               
agent.    Furthermore, if  an  agent  moves  from one  broker  to                                                               
another, it  would be up  to the  broker under which  the listing                                                               
was  obtained  to  determine  whether  the  agent  can  take  the                                                               
listing.  He doubted that the  agent would be allowed to take the                                                               
listing to his/her new broker.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:33:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN disclosed  that he is a  licensed Alaska real                                                               
estate associate broker, and thus he has a conflict of interest.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  observed that the term  "employs" is in                                                               
current law.   He suggested that any use of  that term throughout                                                               
the legislation  should be reviewed  regarding whether  it should                                                               
be changed or a definition of it specified in the legislation.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO pointed out that the  term "employed" can be found in                                                               
AS 08.88.305 as follows:                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
      Sec.  08.88.305.   Multiple  business  operations.   A                                                                    
     person  licensed  as  a real  estate  broker  may  own,                                                                    
     operate,  or  be  employed  by  multiple  corporations,                                                                    
     partnerships, or other  business organizations engaging                                                                    
     in  activities for  which a  license is  required under                                                                    
     this chapter, provided  that each business organization                                                                    
     is  registered  with  the   commission,  and  that  the                                                                    
     principal offices of all  of the business organizations                                                                    
     share a single physical address.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HOLMES  related  that  the term  "to  employ"  is                                                               
defined in a  dictionary as "to either engage the  services of or                                                               
provide a  job that  pays wages".   Therefore, she  surmised that                                                               
the term "employ" includes contract.   If the desire is to change                                                               
the language, she suggested that  it should be changed to "employ                                                               
and contract with" throughout the legislation.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:35:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PRUITT  expressed the need to  be cautious because                                                               
the Internal  Revenue Service (IRS)  separates the two  and there                                                               
are  20 different  distinct criteria.    Therefore, he  suggested                                                               
seeking council from Legislative Legal and Research Services.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO agreed.  He  then directed attention to AS 08.88.910,                                                               
as follows:                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
      Sec.   08.88.910.       Application   to   independent                                                                    
     contractors.     The  provisions of  this chapter  that                                                                    
     apply  to employment  relationships and  employees also                                                                    
     apply  to  contracting  relationships  and  independent                                                                    
     contractors.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  recalled that provision was  enacted in                                                               
1998.  Prior  to 1998, either a  court/agency adjudicated whether                                                               
a  person was  truly  an  employee when  they  have  many of  the                                                               
indices of  being an employee.   The  broker just said  that [the                                                               
employee]  is  an  independent  contractor  so  that  the  broker                                                               
wouldn't have to withhold wages,  taxes, and etcetera.  He opined                                                               
that it has been a big deal in the real estate industry.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO surmised then that withholding is another hitch.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN mentioned  that independent  contractors are                                                               
also  responsible  for  their own  working  hours.    Independent                                                               
contractors are in business for themselves.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HOLMES ventured her  belief that AS 08.88.910 does                                                               
clarify   that  within   this  entire   chapter,  references   to                                                               
employment   relationships   and   employees   also   refers   to                                                               
contracting    relationships    and   independent    contractors.                                                               
Therefore, she  opined that the  terms "employ"  and "employment"                                                               
can be used.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PRUITT  agreed that  it seems  that state  law has                                                               
done  due  diligence  to  provide   clarity  in  this  particular                                                               
section,  but it  doesn't mean  that the  clarity exists  for the                                                               
IRS.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON withdrew Amendment 1.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:44:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  made  a  motion  to  adopt  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 2, as follows:                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 10, preceding "if":                                                                                           
          Insert "only"                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
          Insert a new subsection to read:                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
          "The person licensed as an associate real estate                                                                      
     broker or a real estate  salesperson is not employed to                                                                    
     perform  activities  requiring   licensure  under  this                                                                    
     chapter  for   more  than  one  licensed   real  estate                                                                    
     broker;"                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber accordingly.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 22, following ";":                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
          Insert "and"                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HOLMES objected for discussion purposes.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 1:48 p.m. to 1:52 p.m.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MARTIN said  that if  the intent  is to  clarify for  whom a                                                               
licensed assistant can perform  those activities, then Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 2 accomplishes that.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   HOLMES  expressed   the   need   to  ensure   no                                                               
ambiguities are created in terms of  what people can and can't do                                                               
by  placing  the  language  in the  subsection  rather  than  the                                                               
statute as a whole.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MARTIN offered  that Conceptual  Amendment  2 would  clarify                                                               
licensed  assistants but  not change  anything else  currently in                                                               
statute.  She  explained that she originally  proposed a separate                                                               
subsection in Amendment 1 because  she understood the goal was to                                                               
have it be  a rule for every licensed real  estate salesperson or                                                               
associate  real estate  broker.   However,  if the  intent is  to                                                               
merely  refer  to  licensed  assistants,  then  it's  fine  as  a                                                               
[paragraph].   In response to  Chair Gatto, Ms.  Martin explained                                                               
that a licensed assistant has to  be licensed and thus would have                                                               
to  be a  real estate  salesperson  or an  associate real  estate                                                               
broker.   In  further response  to Chair  Gatto, she  related her                                                               
understanding   that   a   licensed  assistant   is   a   special                                                               
relationship   that  is   entered   into   separate  from   other                                                               
relationships,  which  is  why there  is  a  separate  subsection                                                               
addressing licensed assistants.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:55:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HOLMES  noted her  understanding that  the sponsor                                                               
of HB 267 is amenable to Conceptual Amendment 2.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MARTIN  directed  the   committee's  attention  to  existing                                                               
AS 08.88.398, which in part says:                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     A   licensed  real   estate  salesperson   or  licensed                                                                    
     associate  real estate  broker may  act  as a  licensed                                                                    
     assistant  to a  real  estate licensee  other than  the                                                                    
     broker who employs the  salesperson or associate broker                                                                    
     if                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MARTIN  said  that  language  is  referring  to  a  licensed                                                               
individual  who acts  as an  assistant to  another licensee.   In                                                               
response  to questions,  Ms. Martin  opined that  the use  of the                                                               
language "may  act" is fine  since the relationship  [between the                                                               
licensed assistant and another  licensed salesperson or associate                                                               
real estate broker] is clarified by paragraphs (1)-(5).                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HOLMES   removed  her  objection   to  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment  2.    There  being no  further  objection,  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 2 was adopted.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:00:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG made  a  motion to  adopt Amendment  3,                                                               
labeled 27-LS1111\B.1, Martin, 2/14/12, which read:                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 1, following "Commission;":                                                                                 
          Insert "relating to temporary permits issued by                                                                     
     the  Real  Estate   Commission;  relating  to  licensed                                                                  
     assistants  who  are  employed  by  other  real  estate                                                                  
     licensees; relating  to contributions by a  real estate                                                                  
     licensee to a charitable organization;"                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HOLMES objected for discussion purposes.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  asked  if,   in  light  of  the  prior                                                               
changes, Amendment 3 "will do the trick."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARTIN replied yes.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HOLMES withdrew  her  objection  to Amendment  3.                                                               
There being no further objection, Amendment 3 was adopted.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO  asked whether  the  passage  of CSHB  267(L&C),  as                                                               
amended, would  prevent an individual  from working for  a broker                                                               
in Los  Angeles in the  winter and then  working for a  broker in                                                               
Anchorage  in  the  summer.    He  said  he  isn't  in  favor  of                                                               
preventing an  individual from working  two jobs, which  it seems                                                               
to do because  the legislation says [the  licensed assistant] can                                                               
work for only one broker.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  explained that he  was a licensed  broker in                                                               
California  and  after  moving   to  Alaska  obtained  an  Alaska                                                               
license.  The California  license  was inactive  once  he was  in                                                               
Alaska, but had  he returned to California he  could've worked in                                                               
California.   Although he could  have actively practiced  in both                                                               
states,  he couldn't  practice in  California  because he  wasn't                                                               
with  a broker  in  California.   In  further  response to  Chair                                                               
Gatto, Representative  Lynn recalled that a  [licensee] moving to                                                               
another state to work does have  to take action.  He informed the                                                               
committee  that he  is a  licensee now,  but since  being in  the                                                               
legislature he has been in referral status only.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG referred to AS 08.88.161, which says:                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     "Sec. 08.88.161.  License required.                                                                                        
     Unless  licensed as  a  real  estate broker,  associate                                                                    
     real estate broker, or real  estate salesperson in this                                                                    
     state, a  person may not, except  as otherwise provided                                                                    
     in this chapter,"                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:07:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO clarified  that he is trying to  ascertain whether an                                                               
individual can hold multiple licenses [from various states].                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHAMPION  specified that  in Alaska one  must have  an Alaska                                                               
license to practice real estate.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO pointed  out  that the  language  specifies that  an                                                               
individual may only work for one  real estate broker.  He posed a                                                               
scenario in  which a  licensed individual works  for a  broker in                                                               
Los Angeles  and doesn't deactivate his  California license while                                                               
living  in Alaska.    In  such a  situation,  could the  licensed                                                               
individual  work  for  a  broker  in Alaska.    He  likened  this                                                               
situation  to  a  driver's  license in  that  an  individual  who                                                               
obtains a  driver's license  in one state,  but moves  to another                                                               
state has to  forfeit their driver's license from  the state from                                                               
which  they  move  before  being allowed  to  obtain  a  driver's                                                               
license from the state to which they moved.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHAMPION explained that in Alaska  a real estate license is a                                                               
two-year license.   He  further explained  that he  could request                                                               
his license  to be  inactive and  continue to pay  a fee  and his                                                               
Alaska real estate  license would continue to be  with the broker                                                               
for which  he works.  During  that time in which  his Alaska real                                                               
estate license is  inactive, in another state he  could acquire a                                                               
license to the point of being a  broker.  If he were to return to                                                               
Alaska  and wanted  to practice  real  estate, he  would have  to                                                               
reactivate his Alaska license.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   GATTO  asked   if   in   the  aforementioned   situation,                                                               
Mr. Champion  would have  to deactivate  his real  estate license                                                               
from another state.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CHAMPION  said he  couldn't  speak  to  the rules  of  other                                                               
states.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:09:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
NORMAN  ROKEBERG, Alaska  Real Estate  Coalition, explained  that                                                               
it's allowable  for an  individual to work  with referrals  or an                                                               
out-of-state broker  to work with  an Alaskan licensee.   He then                                                               
related  his  belief that  one  can  have licenses  from  various                                                               
states and practice real estate in  those states.  With regard to                                                               
HB  267,   Section  2  specifically  relates   only  to  licensed                                                               
assistants.   As a  point of  clarification, Mr.  Rokeberg stated                                                               
that there  could be assistants in  employment relationships that                                                               
aren't licensed.   Regarding Amendment 2, Mr.  Rokeberg said that                                                               
if it relates  only to AS 08.88.398, then it's  agreeable to him.                                                               
He  opined that  there  shouldn't be  any  problems or  questions                                                               
regarding  cooperation or  interstate commerce  as it  relates to                                                               
real estate transactions.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  disclosed that  his late father  was an                                                               
industrial  real  estate  broker  in  California  and  worked  in                                                               
various  states.  He  surmised   that  the  aforementioned  would                                                               
continue to be permissible upon passage of HB 267.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROKEBERG  concurred, adding that  the only  question revolves                                                               
around the real estate licensed  assistant. He told the committee                                                               
he is  currently representing the  Alaska Real  Estate Coalition,                                                               
which  consists  of  (indisc.) and  real  estate  licensees  that                                                               
aren't  necessarily members  of the  Realtors Association;  these                                                               
are  individuals  who  are interested  in  enhancing  the  public                                                               
policy  and  education  of  Alaskans  regarding  issues  of  real                                                               
property  and other  real estate  issues.   Mr. Rokeberg  related                                                               
support for HB 267.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:15:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DAVID  SOMERS, Industry  Issues Chairman,  Alaska Association  of                                                               
Realtors, related that  he has been a broker in  Fairbanks for 47                                                               
years.   He  then  related  his support  for  [CSHB 267(L&C),  as                                                               
amended].                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR GATTO, after having ascertained  that no one else wished to                                                               
testify, closed public testimony on HB 267.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PRUITT inquired as  to what the licensed assistant                                                               
does.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CHAMPION   offered  his   understanding  that   a  "licensed                                                               
assistant" is  a contracted individual  that is different  than a                                                               
full licensee  that represents buyers  and sellers,  an associate                                                               
broker who has taken advanced  training and acquired the broker's                                                               
license,  and the  broker.   A  licensed assistant  is simply  an                                                               
individual  that likely  works guaranteed  hours with  guaranteed                                                               
earnings.   A  licensed  assistant enjoys  the  rights a  license                                                               
provides,  such that  the licensed  assistant can  show property,                                                               
discuss  terms  and conditions,  and  go  out on  appraisals  and                                                               
inspections.  A regular employee  can't do the aforementioned, he                                                               
said.    In  fact,  statute prohibits  a  regular  employee  from                                                               
discussing  many details  of a  real estate  sale, including  the                                                               
price.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN concurred,  adding  that basically  licensed                                                               
assistants perform  those duties that  a salesperson is  too busy                                                               
to  do, such  as coordination  with loan  companies, advertising,                                                               
escrow  issues, and  showing  property.   He  echoed his  earlier                                                               
comment that licensed assistants don't  receive a commission.  He                                                               
then reminded  the committee  that if  any of  the aforementioned                                                               
duties are  performed by  an unlicensed  individual, it  would be                                                               
problematic.   In  response to  Chair Gatto,  Representative Lynn                                                               
confirmed that a homeowner can put  his own home for sale without                                                               
having a license.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:20:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PRUITT  surmised  then   that  a  broker  and  an                                                               
assistant broker will  be able to go to California  and sell real                                                               
estate.  He  questioned whether a licensed  assistant [in Alaska]                                                               
would  be able  to go  to California  and work  at a  real estate                                                               
agency in California.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHAMPION replied yes, but  clarified that the individual must                                                               
have a  license from  the state  in which  he is  practicing real                                                               
estate.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROKEBERG added  that it's important to  understand that under                                                               
the contractual  employment relationship  between a broker  or an                                                               
associate broker  and another sales  agency as an  assistant, the                                                               
assistant remains under  the umbrella of the broker.   The broker                                                               
has to  supervisor the  licensee, which  is a  standard practice.                                                               
Mr.  Rokeberg   opined  that  a  [licensed   assistant]  couldn't                                                               
practice in various states.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PRUITT recalled that  the discussion has been that                                                               
[a licensed assistant]  isn't an employee.  He opined  that if [a                                                               
licensed assistant] holds a license  [in one state and then moves                                                               
to  another state  for work],  there is  no reason  he/she should                                                               
have to  forfeit his/her license  in the state from  which he/she                                                               
originally  was  licensed.   He  clarified  that his  concern  is                                                               
regarding   whether  this   legislation   prohibits  a   licensed                                                               
assistant from  practicing in  another state  in which  he/she is                                                               
licensed and  then from  working as a  licensed assistant  in the                                                               
state in  which he  originally holds  a license  and to  which he                                                               
returns.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  GATTO inquired  as to  the situation  in which  a licensed                                                               
assistant wants to move within  Alaska, say between Fairbanks and                                                               
Anchorage.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  explained that  a  licensee  working for  a                                                               
licensed  broker can  go  anywhere  in Alaska  to  list and  sell                                                               
property.   Although typically there  would be a referral  from a                                                               
broker or  a salesperson  in the  area, there's  nothing stopping                                                               
the  licensee  from  taking  a listing  anywhere  in  the  state.                                                               
Representative Lynn clarified that a  licensee can't work for two                                                               
brokers    within   the    state,   either    simultaneously   or                                                               
independently.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:26:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  THOMPSON  moved  to   report  CSHB  267(L&C),  as                                                               
amended,  out of  committee with  individual recommendations  and                                                               
the  accompanying  fiscal  notes.    There  being  no  objection,                                                               
2d CSHB 267(JUD)  was reported from the  House Judiciary Standing                                                               
Committee.                                                                                                                      

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB267 Sponsor Statement.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HL&C 2/6/2012 3:15:00 PM
HB 267
HB267 Sectional Analysis.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HL&C 2/6/2012 3:15:00 PM
HB 267
HB267 Supporting Documents-Letter AK Assoc. Realtors.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HL&C 2/6/2012 3:15:00 PM
HB 267
HB 262- Bill.pdf HJUD 2/15/2012 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 262
HB 262- Sponsor Statement.pdf HJUD 2/15/2012 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 262
HB262-LAW-CRIM-02-10-12.pdf HJUD 2/15/2012 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 262
HB293-DOA-OPA-1-27-12.pdf HJUD 2/15/2012 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 293
HB293-DOA-PDA-2-11-12.pdf HJUD 2/15/2012 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 293
HB293 Sponsor Statement.pdf HJUD 2/15/2012 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 293
HB293 Sectional Analysis.pdf HJUD 2/15/2012 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 293
HB293-LAW-CRIM-02-10-12.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 293
HB 293 CS Version M.pdf HJUD 2/15/2012 1:00:00 PM
HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 293
HB0267B.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 267
HB 234.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 234
HB 234 Sponser Statement.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 234
HB 234 Support Doc.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 234
HB 234 APOA_Letter of Support.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 234
HB 267 Title Amendment. Gruenberg.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 267
HB 234 Legal Memo.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 234
HB 234 ACLU Letter.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 234
HB0234-1-2-021012-LAW-N.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 234
HB267 Munoz Amendment (H)JUD.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 267
HB 267 AREC minutes-Asst AG remarks Licensed Assistant.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 267
HB 262 CS ( ) I.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 262
HB 262 Amendment Cissna I.1.pdf HJUD 2/20/2012 1:00:00 PM
HB 262