Legislature(2001 - 2002)

03/14/2001 02:27 PM JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 110 - SOCIAL SECURITY # & DRIVER'S LICENSES                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
[Contains discussion of SB 102, the companion bill.]                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0085                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  ROKEBERG announced  that  the committee  would hear  HOUSE                                                               
BILL  NO.  110,  "An  Act   relating  to  driver's  licenses  and                                                               
instructional  permits; and  providing  for  an effective  date."                                                               
[Before the committee was CSHB 110(STA).]                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0102                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL, speaking  as the  sponsor, said  that HB
110  would  take social  security  numbers  off  of the  face  of                                                               
driver's licenses.   He added that he had been  dealing with this                                                               
issue in a number of ways  because of reluctance, on his part, to                                                               
have   social   security   numbers   continually   used   as   an                                                               
identification number.   He  pointed out  that though  the social                                                               
security number would still have  to be given on the application,                                                               
individuals would  not have to  have it  on the face  of driver's                                                               
licenses, thus  providing a certain  amount of security  to those                                                               
individuals.   Furthermore, HB  110 will  allow for  an affidavit                                                               
for those who  don't have a social security number  so that those                                                               
folks  could  pursue a  driver's  license.    He noted  that  the                                                               
legislation is  to become effective  immediately.  He  also noted                                                               
that  this  would  also  apply  to  identification  cards.    The                                                               
Department  of Motor  Vehicles  (DMV) has  assured  him that  the                                                               
policy for a driver's license  would be directly related to those                                                               
identifications.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  informed   the  committee  that  Senator                                                               
Therriault is the  sponsor of a similar bill.   Therefore, he had                                                               
requested Senator Therriault's presence  so that he could discuss                                                               
an amendment [to SB 102] that occurred in the Senate.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 0249                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR GENE  THERRIAULT, Alaska State Legislature,  said that he                                                               
and Representative  Coghill had been coordinating  on this issue.                                                               
Before  he discussed  the  amendment, he  asked  if the  proposed                                                               
commercial  driver's  license  (CDL)  language  is  going  to  be                                                               
considered as an amendment or a committee substitute (CS).                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL answered  that it  would be  considered a                                                               
friendly amendment.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT  provided  the committee  with  the  language                                                               
adopted by the  Senate committee, which he said  should also work                                                               
for HB  110.   Senator Therriault informed  the committee  that a                                                               
Juneau man had related the following  story to him.  This man had                                                               
a CDL that had his social security  number on the face of it, and                                                               
he lost  his wallet a  few years  ago.  Shortly  after recovering                                                               
his  wallet,  he  realized  that someone  was  using  his  social                                                               
security number  to assume  his identity.   At the  time, Senator                                                               
Therriault  told the  man  that although  he  thought the  social                                                               
security number  on the CDL  was a federal requirement,  he would                                                               
look into the issue.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT explained that  according to the Federal Motor                                                               
Carrier  Safety  Administration   regulations  [Section  383.153]                                                               
(d)(1),  a  driver  applicant  must provide  his  or  her  social                                                               
security number on  the application of a CDL,  and [under Section                                                               
383.153  (d)(2)]  the  state must  provide  the  social  security                                                               
number  to the  CDL  information system.   Further  clarification                                                               
came from  a publication, used  by states seeking  direction from                                                               
the  federal  government,  which  said,  according  to  [Section]                                                               
383.153, that a social security number  did not have to be on the                                                               
CDL, simply on  the application if the applicant  is domiciled in                                                               
the United States.  Senator Therriault  said it is clear that the                                                               
federal  government  requires  a  social security  number  to  be                                                               
provided on  the application,  which then  gets submitted  to the                                                               
federal tracking system, but the  social security number does not                                                               
have to be on the CDL.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0510                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT referred to  Amendment 1, 22-LS0556\C.1, Ford,                                                               
3/12/01, and said it was  intended to clarify, in Alaska Statute,                                                               
what would be required on a  CDL by the federal government.  Like                                                               
on a regular  driver's license, a social security  number must be                                                               
provided on  the application but does  not have to be  printed on                                                               
the face of the license.  Amendment 1 reads as follows:                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, following line 20:                                                                                                 
     Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                         
        "* Sec. 3.  AS 28.33.100(b) is amended to read:                                                                       
          (b)  In addition to the information required                                                                          
     under  AS  28.15.111,  a  commercial  driver's  license                                                                    
     shall  include  information  determined by  the  United                                                                    
     States  Secretary of  Transportation to  be appropriate                                                                    
     to identify  the licensee  [, INCLUDING  THE LICENSEE'S                                                                    
     SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER]."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT said  he would provide the  committee with the                                                               
written information from the federal government.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL, on  another point,  referred to  page 2,                                                               
lines [15-16], and  inquired if the exception  language should be                                                               
deleted.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT  said   he  did  not  think   that  would  be                                                               
necessary.    He  explained  that   inclusion  of  the  exception                                                               
language would  allow flexibility; should the  federal government                                                               
change its policy  and require a social security  number on CDLs,                                                               
then Alaska Statute  would not have to be  changed to accommodate                                                               
new federal regulations.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   ROKEBERG  suggested   that  keeping   the  aforementioned                                                               
exception language in  would make the statute  more confusing for                                                               
the public.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0725                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT countered that  letting the exception language                                                               
remain  would allow  Alaska to  stay in  compliance with  federal                                                               
regulations even if those regulations  changed in the future.  If                                                               
Alaska  did   not  remain  in   compliance  because   of  federal                                                               
regulation changes,  then Alaska's  CDLs might not  be recognized                                                               
in other states.  The legislature  would then have to convene and                                                               
alter  the   statute  in  order   to  comply  with   new  federal                                                               
regulations.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL noted  that he  was not  opposed to  that                                                               
scenario, should it need to occur.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 0752                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
RYNNIEVA  MOSS,  Staff  to Representative  John  Coghill,  Alaska                                                               
State  Legislature, assisted  with  the presentation  of HB  110.                                                               
She said  she thought Senator Therriault's  interpretation of the                                                               
aforementioned exception  language was  correct.   Currently, the                                                               
Secretary of  Transportation does  not require a  social security                                                               
number on  CDLs; therefore, the  exception language  could remain                                                               
without violating the intent of HB 110.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ROKEBERG  commented that  the federal  regulations document                                                               
provided  by  Senator Therriault  appeared  to  require a  social                                                               
security number  on the  CDL if  the applicant  had an  air brake                                                               
restriction.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT explained  that that  interpretation was  not                                                               
correct.    The  language  in the  federal  regulations  document                                                               
merely required that a social  security number had to be supplied                                                               
on the  application, and it  was [the air brake  restriction that                                                               
must be indicated on the CDL].                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  added that  a social security  number was                                                               
required to  be provided on  the application for a  regular state                                                               
driver's license as well.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ROKEBERG  returned to the  point of the  exception language                                                               
[on  page 2,  lines 15-16].   He  inquired if  Senator Therriault                                                               
recommended keeping it in HB 110.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT  advised   that  keeping  the  aforementioned                                                               
exception language would  be prudent.  If  the exception language                                                               
was  removed from  HB  110, and  the  federal government  started                                                               
requiring social  security numbers on CDLs,  Alaska's Division of                                                               
Motor Vehicles (DMV)  would not be able to  comply; thus Alaska's                                                               
CDLs  would  be  valid  only  in Alaska.    This  scenario  would                                                               
negatively impact  long-haul truck drivers who  routinely use the                                                               
Alaska-Canada  Highway (Alcan)  because their  CDLs would  not be                                                               
valid  in the  Lower  48.   In  response to  a  query from  Chair                                                               
Rokeberg,  Senator Therriault  said that  he thought  CDL holders                                                               
would  understand   the  requirements  on  the   CDL  application                                                               
regarding  social  security  numbers, though  he  suspected  that                                                               
probably no one reads the entire statute prior to applying.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL explained  that given  the current  high-                                                               
tech  methods  of  information transfers,  "identity  theft"  was                                                               
becoming  a  bigger  issue.    He said  he  thought  the  [social                                                               
security]  number  has become  too  much  of an  identifier,  and                                                               
philosophically, he  would not  mind standing  up to  the federal                                                               
government,  although   he  acknowledged   the  need  to   go  in                                                               
incremental steps.  Getting [the  social security number] off the                                                               
face of [driver's] licenses and  fishing licenses would assist in                                                               
protecting an  individual's identity.   He  also noted  that even                                                               
his legislative  ID card included  his social security  number on                                                               
it,  and  he  would  be  taking  up  this  same  issue  with  the                                                               
Legislative Affairs  Agency.  He  concluded by saying  his intent                                                               
with HB 110 was to protect the public from identity theft.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ  commented  that  his  social  security                                                               
number was  not on the  face of  his driver's license  because he                                                               
expressly asked DMV not to include it.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL acknowledged  that people  can make  that                                                               
request but most people do not know of that option.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1059                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DENNY WEATHERS testified  via teleconference.  She  said that she                                                               
and her husband  had wanted to participate in the  meeting [on SB
102] held  yesterday, but  were precluded  from doing  so because                                                               
her husband had  been arrested for not having  a driver's license                                                               
and, therefore, had to  go to court.  She said  that when she and                                                               
her husband went  to go renew their driver's  licenses, they were                                                               
denied because they "did not  have a social security [number], or                                                               
would not give a social security  [number]."  She added that they                                                               
had been fighting this [situation]  since HB 344 went into effect                                                               
in 1998.   She said that in 1999 they  were denied their licenses                                                               
when they went  to renew them because the  legislature created HB
344  under duress  from the  federal government.   She  also said                                                               
that she felt that the legislature  had taken away her rights and                                                               
had tried to force her to get a federal ID number.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. WEATHERS referred  to SB 19 and HB 41  and said that although                                                               
they appeared  to be  good legislation, they  were both  going to                                                               
extend the  sunset provisions regarding social  security [number]                                                               
requirements.   She said  she felt that  the legislature  did not                                                               
seem to  care about the  public; instead, the  legislature wanted                                                               
the federal  dollars.  She  expressed the opinion that  while the                                                               
legislature   was  supposed   to   represent   the  people,   the                                                               
legislature was only  [in Juneau] to make money for  itself.  She                                                               
concluded  by saying  that although  she has  never received  any                                                               
response  to her  inquiries, she  still wanted  to know  how many                                                               
people  owe child  support versus  how  many people  don't.   She                                                               
added  that she  knows very  few  people who  actually owe  child                                                               
support, and she  felt that the legislature  was causing problems                                                               
for  those  who  do  not  owe  child  support  in  order  to  get                                                               
additional funds  through the  court system.   She also  said she                                                               
felt  that  what the  legislature  was  doing was  a  treasonable                                                               
offense.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 1259                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
ERIC WEATHERS testified  via teleconference.  He said  he felt he                                                               
was  being made  a  criminal over  the  social security  [number]                                                               
issue.   He said  he believed  it was directly  due to  the Child                                                               
[Support] Enforcement Agency and over  the $70 million.  He added                                                               
that he  will have been in  court three times as  of tomorrow for                                                               
the charge of driving without a  license.  He postulated that the                                                               
$70 million would  be used up in  trial cases.  He  said he would                                                               
really like  to see "you  throw it  out and take  this oppression                                                               
off  of   it."    Mr.  Weathers   clarified,  for  Representative                                                               
Rokeberg, that  he was  arrested for  driving without  a license,                                                               
and  he was  denied a  license because  "I didn't  have a  social                                                               
security number."  He added  that Representative Coghill's office                                                               
had a copy of everything and all his prior testimony.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1394                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MARY MARSHBURN, Director, Division  of Motor Vehicles, Department                                                               
of  Administration,  testified  via  teleconference.    She  said                                                               
Senator  Therriault  was  correct:    federal  law  requires  the                                                               
collection  and retention  of social  security  numbers for  both                                                               
commercial and non-commercial driver's  licenses.  However, there                                                               
are not any  federal requirements to display  the social security                                                               
number on either license.  She  also said that neither HB 110 nor                                                               
proposed  Amendment 1  would have  any  effect on  either DMV  or                                                               
DMV's  zero  fiscal   note.    She  added   that  the  division's                                                               
collection  of social  security numbers,  as required  by federal                                                               
law, would not be prohibited.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARSHBURN clarified  that it is a federal  requirement, not a                                                               
state  requirement, to  collect  a social  security  number on  a                                                               
driver's license  application.  The  collection of the  number on                                                               
the application  was required, but  the display of the  number on                                                               
the  face  of  the  license  was not.    She  said  this  federal                                                               
requirement came from the child  support law.  She explained that                                                               
if someone had  never been issued a social  security number, then                                                               
that person could  complete a sworn affidavit to  that effect and                                                               
would be  issued a driver's license  or be allowed to  renew one.                                                               
If,  however, a  person has  ever been  issued a  social security                                                               
number,  then  DMV  is  required by  the  federal  government  to                                                               
collect it.  The Social  Security Administration does not rescind                                                               
social security numbers, she noted.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1491                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ inquired whether  the requirement of the                                                               
sworn affidavit could be fulfilled at the DMV office.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARSHBURN said yes, it could.   In addition, every DMV office                                                               
has a  sign that informs  the public  that display of  the social                                                               
security number on the face of the license is optional.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ  referred to  [paragraph] (4).   He said                                                               
he thought  that the objective  of the statement  "this paragraph                                                               
does not  apply to a person  who affirms by a  sworn [affidavit]"                                                               
could be  accomplished by saying:   "this paragraph  only applies                                                               
to a  person who has been  issued a social security  number".  He                                                               
questioned why the burden was on  people who do not have a social                                                               
security  number  to come  forward  and  affirm  that fact.    He                                                               
suggested amending HB 110 [on page  1, line 14, and page 2, lines                                                               
1-2] to read:   "this paragraph only applies to  a person who has                                                               
been issued  a social security  number".   The same end  would be                                                               
accomplished,  and it  would avoid  the problem  of affirmatively                                                               
requiring somebody who does not  have a social security number to                                                               
do something.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARSHBURN  responded that this  issue would be best  posed to                                                               
the   Department   of   Law.     She   had,   however,   received                                                               
communications from  the federal  government on this  very issue,                                                               
which  directed DMV  to do  just the  opposite of  Representative                                                               
Berkowitz's suggestion.   In  order for DMV  to issue  a license,                                                               
the  applicant must  sign  a sworn  affidavit,  under penalty  of                                                               
perjury, that  he or she  has never  had, has never  been issued,                                                               
and  has  never  used  a   social  security  number.    She  said                                                               
affidavits are to be kept on  file with DMV, although to date, no                                                               
affidavits have been filed.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ROKEBERG added  that according to a letter  from David Gray                                                               
Ross, Commissioner,  Office of Child Support  Enforcement, United                                                               
States  Department  of Health  and  Human  Services, states  were                                                               
advised to  require the sworn  affidavits.  He  acknowledged that                                                               
he did not know exactly what  that meant, whether it was just the                                                               
commissioner's opinion, or if there was a regulatory foundation.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 1637                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ argued  that the interpretation language                                                               
in the  aforementioned letter suggested  a course of  action that                                                               
was  distinctly different  from  requiring someone  who does  not                                                               
have a social security number  to affirmatively do something.  He                                                               
also  noted that  the  legislature  did not  have  to follow  the                                                               
advice of the federal government.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ROKEBERG  commented that  had Mr.  Weathers used  the sworn                                                               
affidavit, he  might not have found  himself before the bar.   On                                                               
another  point,  he  asked  Ms.  Marshburn  if  any  DMV  systems                                                               
required social security numbers.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MARSHBURN  explained  that   social  security  numbers  were                                                               
another piece of information.   The key pieces of information for                                                               
use  in the  DMV  systems  were the  names  and driver's  license                                                               
numbers.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT  presented the  following scenario:   a person                                                               
had  already supplied  his  or  her social  security  on a  prior                                                               
driver's license  application, and when  he or she came  into the                                                               
office  to  renew the  license,  refused  to provide  the  social                                                               
security number again.   Senator Therriault asked if  the DMV had                                                               
the flexibility to  use information already on  file, rather than                                                               
deny the renewal.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MARSHBURN  confirmed that  the  DMV  would  be able  to  use                                                               
information already on file.  She  added that the only people who                                                               
risk being denied a driver's  license are people that are getting                                                               
an Alaskan  driver's license for  the first time or  people whose                                                               
social security  number cannot be  located in the database.   She                                                               
noted  that most  people of  her  generation (mid-fifties)  would                                                               
have  a social  security  number, but  people  of her  children's                                                               
generation might be more likely to not have one.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ pointed  out  that if  a  person had  a                                                               
social security  number but  claimed to not  have one,  then that                                                               
person  would be  guilty of  "unsworn falsification,"  a criminal                                                               
offense.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARSHBURN  noted that in such  a case, the DMV  would ask the                                                               
person  to  sign  the  affidavit.     If  the  person  signs  the                                                               
affidavit, a license  is issued; if the person does  not sign the                                                               
affidavit, a license is denied.   She added that both the federal                                                               
government and  the Office  of the  Attorney General  advised the                                                               
DMV to  take this course of  action.  She also  acknowledged that                                                               
the DMV  did have ways of  determining if a person  had committed                                                               
unsworn falsification.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 1896                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JENNIFER  RUDINGER, Executive  Director,  Alaska Civil  Liberties                                                               
Union  (AkCLU), testified  via teleconference.   She  simply said                                                               
that she was in support of HB 110 and proposed Amendment 1.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ROKEBERG referred to language  [on page 2, lines 15-16] and                                                               
inquired  of Ms.  Marshburn if  there was  any prospect  that the                                                               
federal  government  would change  its  policy  anytime soon  and                                                               
start requiring social security numbers on  the face of CDLs.  He                                                               
wanted to  know how stable  the federal regulations were  in this                                                               
area.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARSHBURN explained  that there was not any  prospect at this                                                               
time for  change in the  federal regulation regarding CDLs.   She                                                               
added, however, that  she wouldn't rule such  a change completely                                                               
out, and  the language [on page  2, lines 15-16] was  designed to                                                               
allow  flexibility in  case  such  a change  occurred.   If  that                                                               
language  were removed  and such  a change  did occur  in federal                                                               
regulations, Alaska would be found  out of compliance.  She added                                                               
that  noncompliance  meant  decertification of  the  state's  CDL                                                               
program, which would,  in turn, prevent CDL  holders from driving                                                               
in other states,  and would also cause about a  5 percent loss of                                                               
highway funds, or approximately $17 million.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  ROKEBERG noted  that typically,  the [U.S.]  Department of                                                               
Transportation  gives  states a  transition  period  in which  to                                                               
implement changes  in state statute  in order to comply  with new                                                               
federal regulations.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MARSHBURN  confirmed  that  that  would  be  the  case,  but                                                               
cautioned that  the length of  the notification period  can vary.                                                               
She mentioned  that the [federal] Drivers  Privacy Protection Act                                                               
[of 1994]  had a seven-month notification  period, which required                                                               
the legislature to act quite quickly.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 2080                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ROKEBERG  announced that the  public hearing on HB  110 was                                                               
closed.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2147                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL made a motion  to adopt the aforementioned                                                               
Amendment 1.  There being no objection, it was so ordered.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ  made  a  motion  to  adopt  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 2, which is as follows:                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 1,                                                                                                            
          delete:  "does not apply to a person who affirms                                                                      
     by sworn affidavit that the person has not"                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
          insert:  "only applies to a person who has"                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
[The  result would  be that  paragraph (4),  starting on  page 1,                                                               
line 14, and  continuing on page 2, lines 1-2,  would read:  "(4)                                                               
contain the  applicant's social  security number;  this paragraph                                                               
only applies  to a person who  has been issued a  social security                                                               
number; and".]                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL,  as  the   sponsor,  stated  he  had  no                                                               
objection   to   Conceptual  Amendment   2.      He  added   that                                                               
notwithstanding  the federal  government's  advice regarding  the                                                               
sworn  affidavit, he  agreed  with the  concept  of "putting  the                                                               
burden where it belongs."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ added that  in the aforementioned letter                                                               
from David  Gray Ross, paragraph  3 says that  Section 466(a)(13)                                                               
of  the  Social Security  Act  is  interpreted "to  require  that                                                               
States  have procedures  which require  an individual  to furnish                                                               
any  social  security  number...."   He  argued  that  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 2 was just such a procedure.   He added that as long as                                                               
[the  legislature] complied  with  the intent,  nothing more  was                                                               
needed.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL noted  that although  he agreed  with the                                                               
remarks of  Representative Berkowitz,  he also  acknowledged that                                                               
the  federal government  intended  to require  an affidavit  from                                                               
individuals who do  not have a social security number.   He added                                                               
that he  thought the [DMV]  could continue to  collect affidavits                                                               
without the requirement being in statute.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ  commented that  he  did  not want  the                                                               
state to be collecting affidavits  from people who are exercising                                                               
their rights.   He referred  to Mr. Weathers' case  and suggested                                                               
that requiring  people to affirm that  they do not have  a social                                                               
security number is making criminals  out of people who are simply                                                               
doing what they feel is right.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 2300                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  ROKEBERG countered  that  if Conceptual  Amendment 2  were                                                               
adopted, anyone could claim that he  or she did not have a social                                                               
security number and, therefore, would  not be required to furnish                                                               
it on the application.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ added  that there  was not  any way  to                                                               
check on the  validity of claims made by people  that they do not                                                               
have a social security number.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  ROKEBERG  noted that  that  did  not  seem to  be  problem                                                               
currently,  but  cautioned  that  if  statutory  permission  were                                                               
given, then it could become a problem.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said that he  could see three classes of                                                               
people that  would not provide  a social security number:   those                                                               
that did not wish to divulge it,  those who did not have one, and                                                               
those  that  were  trying  to  evade the  law.    He  added  that                                                               
individuals who  were trying  to evade that  law would  be caught                                                               
some other  way, not through  a sworn  affidavit.  He  noted that                                                               
unsworn falsification is a crime with far reaching effects.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  ROKEBERG said  that the  state would  be running  afoul of                                                               
federal law  by not providing  the social security number,  if in                                                               
fact an individual did have a  social security number but did not                                                               
divulge it on  the application.  He added that  with the adoption                                                               
of  Conceptual Amendment  2,  the  DMV clerk  who  would have  no                                                               
recourse if a person lied about having a social security number.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ  countered that  honest people  would be                                                               
breaking the  law by  not providing a  social security  number if                                                               
they had been issued one.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL added  that it  appears to  him that  the                                                               
federal government  is requiring  people to swear,  by affidavit,                                                               
that they  do not have a  social security number, and  he said he                                                               
believes that  to be coercive.   He also said he  did not believe                                                               
the  burden  of  proof  should  be  there  because  it  could  be                                                               
construed as coercing people to get a social security number.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
[CHAIR ROKEBERG maintained his  objection to Conceptual Amendment                                                               
2.  This statement  is not found on the tape  but was recorded in                                                               
the log notes.]                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 01-32, SIDE B                                                                                                              
Number 2499                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
A roll call vote was  taken.  Representatives Coghill, Meyer, and                                                               
Berkowitz  voted  for  Conceptual Amendment  2.    Representative                                                               
Rokeberg  voted against  it.   Representatives  James, Ogan,  and                                                               
Kookesh  were  absent during  the  vote.   Therefore,  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment  2  was  adopted.    [After the  roll  call  vote,  the                                                               
committee  questioned  quorum  requirements.    Chair  Rokeberg's                                                               
staff  confirmed that  according to  Legislative Legal  Services,                                                               
Conceptual Amendment 2 was adopted.]                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 2427                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ROKEBERG  made a  motion to  adopt Conceptual  Amendment 3,                                                               
which is as follows:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, lines 15-16,                                                                                                       
       delete:      "Except    as   provided   under   AS                                                                       
     28.33.100(b) for commercial driver's license, a"                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
          insert:  "A"                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 2344                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   BERKOWITZ   objected    for   the   purpose   of                                                               
clarification                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   ROKEBERG    explained   that    notwithstanding   Senator                                                               
Therriault's  arguments, he  did  not want  to create  additional                                                               
confusion within  the statute  by putting in  an exception  for a                                                               
situation  that did  not as  yet exist.   Chair  Rokeberg further                                                               
explained that  the adoption  of Amendment  1 made  the exception                                                               
language listed in proposed Conceptual Amendment 3 superfluous.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. MOSS  commented that  the exception language,  if left  in HB
110, would  allow the DMV to  comply with any changes  imposed by                                                               
the federal  government regarding  CDLs.  She  added that  if the                                                               
exception  language was  removed,  as is  proposed by  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 3, the  state would still have time to  comply with any                                                               
forthcoming  changes  from  the   federal  government  because  a                                                               
notification period would be given.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 2240                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ROKEBERG noted there was  no further objection.  Therefore,                                                               
Conceptual Amendment 3 was adopted.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  ROKEBERG  explained,  for the  benefit  of  Representative                                                               
James, who  had recently arrived,  the amendments made to  HB 110                                                               
thus far.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 2129                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JAMES    commented   that   she    agreed   with                                                               
Representative  Rokeberg's reasons  for  objecting to  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment  2.   She said  [the legislature]  should not  open the                                                               
door for people to lie and cheat.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 2101                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  BERKOWITZ  moved  to  report  CSHB  110(STA),  as                                                               
amended,  out of  committee with  individual recommendations  and                                                               
the accompanying  zero fiscal  note.   There being  no objection,                                                               
CSHB  110(JUD) was  reported from  the  House Judiciary  Standing                                                               
Committee.                                                                                                                      

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