Legislature(1993 - 1994)

03/10/1993 01:00 PM JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
  HJR 3 LIMITING TERMS OF LEGISLATORS                                          
  Number 044                                                                   
  REP. TERRY MARTIN, PRIME SPONSOR of HJR 3, said that the                     
  idea of term limitations had been around since the Greek and                 
  Roman empires.  He commented that President Madison had been                 
  a strong advocate of term limitations as a means of curbing                  
  the power of special interest groups.  Rep. Martin said that                 
  resolutions pertaining to term limitations had been                          
  introduced in the Alaska Legislature 19 times since 1960.                    
  He noted that term limitations had support from a broad                      
  spectrum of individuals.                                                     
  REP. MARTIN commented that the public had spoken in support                  
  of term limitations as a means of controlling the influence                  
  of special interest groups and legislators who had served                    
  for a long time.  He said he agreed with the public, who                     
  continually elected him, because they knew that he was an                    
  advocate of term limitations.  He noted that if HJR 3 were                   
  enacted, he would have to stop running for office.                           
  Number 140                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN said that HJR 3 had been crafted to reflect a                    
  moderate approach to term limitations, in terms of what                      
  other states had done.  He stated that the National                          
  Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL) had reported that 29                 
  states were now addressing the issue of term limitations.                    
  He said HJR 3 would allow a person to serve a maximum of 12                  
  years in the legislature before taking a required break.  A                  
  legislator could then continue to serve in the legislature                   
  after that break, he added.                                                  
  Number 154                                                                   
  REP. GREEN called Rep. Martin's attention to a possible                      
  inconsistency in section 1 on page 1 of HJR 3.                               
  Number 161                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN replied that the section that Rep. Green had                     
  pointed out referred to appointments.                                        
  Number 170                                                                   
  REP. GREEN noted that HJR 3 would allow a person to serve a                  
  maximum of four terms as a Representative and a maximum of                   
  two terms as a Senator.  He said if a person served two                      
  Senate terms, for a total of eight years, and two House                      
  terms, for a total of four years, he or she would end up                     
  serving a grand total of 12 years.  But, he said, HJR 3                      
  limited combined service to 11 years.  He commented that the                 
  resolution would end up limiting either a second House term                  
  or a second Senate term.  He asked why HJR 3 referred to a                   
  limit of 11 years, instead of 12 years.                                      
  Number 185                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN responded that the resolution had been drafted                   
  the way that it was to accommodate the appointment of                        
  legislators.  He mentioned a situation involving the                         
  appointment of Governor Egan.  A lawsuit was filed against                   
  the Governor, alleging that he could not run for a third                     
  term.  The Governor's contention was that since he was                       
  appointed to his first term, that one did not count for the                  
  purposes of term limitations.                                                
  Number 223                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER expressed his belief that HJR 3 prevented a                  
  person from running for a term that she or he would be                       
  prohibited from completing, under the provisions of the term                 
  limitation law.                                                              
  Number 245                                                                   
  REP. GREEN noted his continued concern over the number 11.                   
  Number 247                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN said that the resolution would allow a person to                 
  serve a maximum of 12 years in the legislature.  He said                     
  that he would have to consult with the Division of Legal                     
  Services again as to why the number 11 was put into the                      
  Number 258                                                                   
  REP. PHILLIPS commented that she supported HJR 3, but                        
  advocated a maximum of 16 years, instead of 12.                              
  Number 266                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN replied that a maximum of 16 years would not                     
  reflect a moderate approach, compared to term limitations                    
  enacted in other states.                                                     
  Number 270                                                                   
  REP. PHILLIPS stated that she was not concerned with what                    
  other states were doing with regard to term limitations.                     
  She commented that a person ought to be able to serve two                    
  Senate terms and four House terms.                                           
  Number 277                                                                   
  REP. GREEN noted that HJR 3 should be amended so as to                       
  change the maximum number of years a person could serve in                   
  the legislature from 11 to 12 years.                                         
  REP. MARTIN said that he would consider Rep. Green's idea as                 
  a friendly amendment.                                                        
  REP. GREEN moved to amend the language on page 1, line 12,                   
  deleting the word "eleven" and replacing it with the word                    
  Number 298                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND objected for the purposes of discussion.  He                   
  said that he supported Rep. Green's amendment.  He noted                     
  that a person might serve two terms in the House, for a                      
  total of four years, and then move to the Senate, where he                   
  or she would be limited to only one term.  He withdrew his                   
  Number 310                                                                   
  REP. PHILLIPS objected to the motion for the purposes of                     
  discussing a term limitation of 16 years, instead of 11 or                   
  12 years.                                                                    
  Number 313                                                                   
  REP. PHILLIPS indicated that she was aware that the national                 
  average on term limitations was 12 years.  However, she                      
  stated that in Alaska, it was difficult to find people                       
  willing to stay in office long enough to be effective, but                   
  not so long as to remain in office for an excessive period                   
  of time.  She said that she agreed with the notion of term                   
  limits, but felt that people should be able to serve two                     
  terms in each body.                                                          
  Number 326                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN cited the writings of President Madison, which                   
  held that nine years was too long for a person to hold                       
  public office.  He noted the balancing act between                           
  experienced legislators and "new blood."  He expressed his                   
  opinion that there was no shortage of candidates in Alaska.                  
  He commented that, in his opinion, 16 years was way too long                 
  for a person to serve in public office without taking a                      
  Number 344                                                                   
  REP. PHILLIPS noted that of all of the representatives in                    
  the room, Rep. Martin was the one who had served closest to                  
  16 years.  She said that freshmen legislators began their                    
  service with high hopes of what they would accomplish, but                   
  those hopes were quickly dashed.  She noted that it took a                   
  new legislator time to get up to speed on the issues and the                 
  process.  She reiterated her support for a 16-year                           
  Number 363                                                                   
  REP. JAMES commented that, as a freshman legislator, she did                 
  not think she would learn how to do her job in 16 years.                     
  She said that when she was running for office, her                           
  constituents told her that they supported term limits.  She                  
  had agreed with them during her campaign, but had nearly                     
  changed her mind after two months of public service.                         
  REP. JAMES said that the legislature was a whole new world                   
  to her, very different than what she had expected before                     
  arriving in Juneau.  She commented that the learning curve                   
  in the legislature was very steep.  She stated that it would                 
  take a good eight to ten years of legislative service for a                  
  person to be an effective Finance Committee chair, in her                    
  Number 400                                                                   
  REP. JAMES expressed her concern that, because the capitol                   
  was in Juneau, legislators almost had to give up their                       
  existing jobs to serve in the legislature.  She noted the                    
  financial difficulty that her service in the legislature had                 
  created.  Rep. James commented that she saw some benefits to                 
  legislators serving for long periods of time.  She said that                 
  she felt obligated to support term limits, because that was                  
  what she said she would do during her campaign.  She said                    
  that if the legislature were to limit service to 16 years,                   
  they might as well not limit service at all.  She noted her                  
  belief that 12 years was a reasonable limitation on terms.                   
  (Rep. Davidson arrived at 1:30 p.m.)                                         
  Number 421                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN commented that it was important that the                         
  legislature not pass a measure that the public perceived to                  
  be a way to ensure the legislators' own longevity.  He noted                 
  that time was an extremely important factor when it came to                  
  accomplishing a task.  He said that everyone procrastinated                  
  when they knew that they had a given amount of time during                   
  which to accomplish a task.  He said that given term limits,                 
  legislators would work harder to accomplish their goals in                   
  the time allotted to them.                                                   
  Number 456                                                                   
  REP. JAMES noted that her constituents advocated term                        
  limitations of eight years, which she felt was too short.                    
  She expressed her opinion that 12 years was a good                           
  compromise, which would meet the public's desire for term                    
  Number 464                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Rep. Martin how many years he had served                 
  in the legislature.                                                          
  Number 467                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN replied that he was currently serving his                        
  fifteenth year.                                                              
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Rep. Martin if he honestly believed in                   
  his resolution.                                                              
  REP. MARTIN said that he absolutely believed in his                          
  resolution, and noted that he had been sponsoring similar                    
  resolutions ever since he began his service in the                           
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Rep. Martin what had prevented him from                  
  voluntarily abiding by the terms of his yet-unpassed                         
  Number 472                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN said that as he was a staunch advocate of term                   
  limitations; his voluntary resignation from public service                   
  would aid the forces who objected to term limitations.  He                   
  said that he thought it was only fair to have six or eight                   
  Democrats leave the legislature at the same time that he                     
  Number 482                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON noted that individuals were faced with fewer                   
  and fewer choices as time went on.  He commented that if he                  
  lived in Rep. Martin's district, he might well choose to                     
  vote for Rep. Martin for many years.  He questioned whose                    
  best interests would be served by term limitations.                          
  Number 500                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN replied that the public's best interests were                    
  served by term limitations.  He reiterated his point that                    
  the idea of term limitations was not new.  He mentioned the                  
  multiplicity of special interest groups and the advantages                   
  of incumbent lawmakers.  Rep. Martin spoke of the most                       
  recent U.S. House of Representatives election, in which many                 
  incumbents were defeated.                                                    
  Number 524                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Rep. Martin if there were interest                       
  groups which controlled his vote.                                            
  Number 527                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN responded that he represented the views of many                  
  interest groups, including the military and the Right to                     
  Life movement.                                                               
  Number 534                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON commented on a situation, caused by                            
  reapportionment, in which some Senate terms were two years                   
  long, while others were four years long.  He asked how that                  
  situation would mesh with HJR 3's language regarding full                    
  and partial terms.                                                           
  Number 544                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN replied that Rep. Davidson's comment answered                    
  Rep. Green's earlier question.                                               
  Number 555                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON stated that it seemed that the people who                      
  gained from term limitations were special interests.  He                     
  expressed his belief that information was power.  He noted                   
  that institutional memory translated to information, and                     
  staff, bureaucrats, and lobbyists were the ones who carried                  
  the institutional memory forward.  He called HJR 3                           
  unfortunate legislation, which sounded great, but limited                    
  choices and held long-term dangers for democracy.  He added                  
  that he would vote against HJR 3.                                            
  Number 587                                                                   
  REP. GREEN commented that he still believed that the number                  
  12 should be substituted for the number 11 in HJR 3.  He                     
  noted that a person could conceivably serve two Senate                       
  terms, which together totalled four years.  He suggested                     
  amending the language in HJR 3 on line 10 to say "may serve                  
  no more than eight years as a senator."                                      
  Number 606                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN said that he had discussed his resolution with                   
  the NCSL and the Legislative Affairs Legal Services                          
  Division.  He noted that some states limited legislators to                  
  one term only, ever.  He said that in drafting his                           
  resolution, he had tried to be flexible in accommodating                     
  appointments and reapportionment.                                            
  REP. PHILLIPS asked Rep. Martin how many members of the                      
  Alaska State Legislature had served over 12 years, and how                   
  many had served over 16 years.                                               
  Number 625                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN replied that he believed that 12 legislators had                 
  served more than 12 years and five had served over 14 years.                 
  Number 646                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that the committee was currently                        
  considering a proposed amendment, which would change, on                     
  line 12, the word "eleven" to "twelve."                                      
  Number 649                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON noted his concern that a person could serve                    
  eight years as a member of the House, but would be unable to                 
  serve even one full term in the Senate, as HJR 3 was                         
  currently drafted.                                                           
  CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that his interpretation was the same                  
  as that of Rep. Davidson.                                                    
  REP. GREEN noted that if the language were amended to read                   
  "twelve" instead of "eleven," HJR 3 would allow a person to                  
  serve one full Senate term after serving eight years in the                  
  REP. DAVIDSON said that he did not understand the rationale                  
  behind not allowing a person to serve two terms as a                         
  Number 670                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that he would like to address the                     
  amendment currently before the committee to change the word                  
  "eleven" to "twelve" on line 12.                                             
  REP. PHILLIPS moved to amend the amendment to replace the                    
  word "twelve" with "sixteen."                                                
  CHAIRMAN PORTER objected for the purposes of discussion.                     
  REP. GREEN mentioned Rep. James' earlier comment about how                   
  the public would perceive term limitations that were rather                  
  Number 691                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER called for a roll call vote.  Reps.                          
  Davidson, Kott, Nordlund, and Phillips voted "yea."  Reps.                   
  Green, James, and Porter voted "nay."  And so, the amendment                 
  to the amendment passed.                                                     
  Number 698                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER indicated that the amendment now before the                  
  committee would change the word "eleven" on line 12 to                       
  "sixteen."  He objected to the amendment, commenting that                    
  his constituents advocated term limits of eight years.  He                   
  said that he felt that an eight-year term limit was too                      
  short.  He reminded the committee members that the Governor                  
  was limited to serving eight years.  He mentioned that the                   
  public would not support a term limit of 16 years.  He                       
  strongly urged a vote of "nay" on the amendment.                             
  Number 736                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON respectfully disagreed with the Chairman's                     
  comparison between the legislative and executive branches of                 
  government.  He said that the Governor had power far beyond                  
  that of individual legislators.  He noted the powerlessness                  
  felt by legislators when faced with a bill which enjoyed the                 
  support of high-pressure lobbyists.  He said it was                          
  inappropriate to compare the executive branch with the                       
  legislative branch in the case of term limitations.                          
  REP. DAVIDSON commented that he considered himself a citizen                 
  legislator.  He said that he had a family and had served in                  
  the House for six years.  He mentioned his prior service on                  
  the Kodiak city council and school board, and described the                  
  family and financial sacrifices that went hand-in-hand with                  
  public service.  He said that calling 16 years of service in                 
  the legislature a "career" was stretching the idea of what a                 
  career was all about.  He commented that what legislators                    
  sometimes had to endure was sheer drudgery and pain, with                    
  slave wages to boot.                                                         
  REP. DAVIDSON stated that 16 years was not too long for a                    
  term limitation.  He said that to encourage people to serve                  
  in the legislature, they should at least be allowed to get                   
  past the learning curve.                                                     
  Number 788                                                                   
  REP. PHILLIPS said that 72 percent of respondents to her                     
  constituent poll indicated that they supported term                          
  limitations of eight years in the House and eight years in                   
  the Senate.                                                                  
  Number 796                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that the amendment before the committee                 
  was to change the word "eleven" to "sixteen" on page 1, line                 
  12.  A roll call vote was taken.  Reps. Kott, Nordlund,                      
  Phillips and Davidson voted "yea."  Reps. Green, James and                   
  Porter voted "nay."  And so, the amendment was approved.                     
  TAPE 93-30, SIDE B                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
  REP. MARTIN stated that the amendment made by the committee                  
  destroyed the idea behind HJR 3.  He said that he would not                  
  be the author of a resolution calling for term limitations                   
  of 16 years.                                                                 
  Number 012                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER called an "at ease" to consider the                          
  sponsor's comment.                                                           
  Number 027                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER called the meeting back to order.                            
  REP. PHILLIPS moved to rescind the committee's action on the                 
  amendment changing the number "eleven" to "sixteen."  There                  
  being no objection, it was so ordered.                                       
  CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that an amendment, replacing the word                 
  "eleven" with "twelve" on line 12 of HJR 3, was now before                   
  the committee.                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS moved to amend the amendment, with the effect                  
  of changing the word "eleven" on line 12 to "fourteen."                      
  REP. GREEN objected.                                                         
  Number 065                                                                   
  REP. JAMES asked the Chairman to outline the action taken                    
  thus far on HJR 3.                                                           
  Number 110                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER explained that the committee had not yet                     
  amended HJR 3.  The committee had made many motions to amend                 
  the resolution, but none had been accomplished, he said.  He                 
  entertained a motion to rescind all previous motions to                      
  REP. KOTT made the motion to rescind all previous motions to                 
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that Rep. Kott's motion would return                    
  the committee to addressing CSHJR 3(STA).  Hearing no                        
  objection, the motion was adopted.                                           
  Number 140                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND made a motion to amend the language on page 1,                 
  line 12, so as to replace the word "eleven" with "fourteen."                 
  There was objection.                                                         
  Number 153                                                                   
  REP. GREEN commented that the language in HJR 3 relating to                  
  Senate terms seemed to cause difficulty, with respect to                     
  reapportionment.  He suggested modifying the language                        
  relating to Senate terms to refer to eight years, instead of                 
  to the number of terms.                                                      
  REP. GREEN noted that if the resolution were to be amended                   
  to limit legislative service to 14 years, the public would                   
  likely perceive that the legislature had in effect done                      
  nearly nothing to limit terms.                                               
  Number 197                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER expressed concern that changing "eleven" to                  
  "fourteen" would have deleterious effects on other language                  
  in HJR 3.                                                                    
  Number 206                                                                   
  REP. GREEN stated that limiting service to 14 years would                    
  prevent a person from serving four terms in the House and                    
  two terms in the Senate.                                                     
  Number 220                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON commented that he did not understand why the                   
  committee was playing numbers games.  He said he could                       
  envision a situation in which a person served four House                     
  terms and then was elected to the Senate.  That person would                 
  only be allowed to serve one Senate term, regardless of how                  
  that person's constituents felt.  He said the committee had                  
  already voted to amend the bill to limit terms to 16 years,                  
  but was now continuing to play numbers games.                                
  CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that the committee members now had                     
  CSHJR 3(STA) in front of them, with a motion to replace the                  
  number "eleven" with "fourteen."                                             
  Number 265                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND explained that a person who wanted to serve                    
  two terms in the Senate could choose to end his or her House                 
  career at six years.  However, he noted the confounding                      
  situation of reapportionment, which created Senate terms of                  
  both two and four years.  Consequently, he said, there were                  
  numerous possible scenarios for how a person might serve 12                  
  years in the legislature.                                                    
  REP. NORDLUND noted that he offered his amendment changing                   
  the word "eleven" to "fourteen" as a compromise.                             
  Number 283                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON stated that even a term limitation of 14 years                 
  would take away choices from the people.  He commented that                  
  putting numbers into HJR 3 which were not multiples of four                  
  confused the issue.  He said that if there was going to be a                 
  limitation of eight years' service in the House, then there                  
  ought to be an equal limitation for service in the Senate.                   
  Number 299                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER commented that he agreed with Rep. Nordlund                  
  that 14 years would be a compromise.  He noted that term                     
  limitations by definition took away some choices.                            
  Number 334                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER called for a roll call vote on the amendment                 
  changing "eleven" to "fourteen."  Reps. Kott, Nordlund and                   
  Phillips voted "yea."  Reps. Davidson, Green, James and                      
  Porter voted "nay."  And so, the amendment failed.                           
  The Chairman noted that the committee still had CSHJR 3(STA)                 
  before it.  He mentioned that two people wished to testify                   
  on HJR 3.                                                                    
  Number 339                                                                   
  RESA JERREL, representing the NATIONAL FEDERATION OF                         
  INDEPENDENT BUSINESSES (NFIB), testified in support of HJR
  3.  She said that in 1991, 80 percent of respondents to the                  
  NFIB member poll voted in favor of term limitations.  She                    
  added that the majority of respondents advocated limits of                   
  eight years in each body of the legislature.                                 
  Number 350                                                                   
  REP. GREEN asked Ms. Jerrel who had been polled.                             
  Number 354                                                                   
  MS. JERREL replied that the entire Alaska membership of the                  
  NFIB was polled.  She said that when she put the question on                 
  the ballot, she did not think to ask about cumulative term                   
  Number 360                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Ms. Jerrel if she received responses                     
  from all 5,000 Alaska NFIB members.                                          
  Number 367                                                                   
  MS. JERREL said that there had been a response rate of                       
  approximately 20 percent to her poll.                                        
  Number 381                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON asked if the return rate was normal, or if the                 
  issue of term limitations was very important to the NFIB                     
  members, resulting in a higher-than-average response rate.                   
  MS. JERREL said that the 20 percent response rate was                        
  REP. DAVIDSON said that his understanding was that NFIB                      
  members did not want anyone to serve more than 16 years in                   
  the legislature.                                                             
  MS. JERREL reiterated her point that her poll question did                   
  not address combined terms in the House and the Senate.                      
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Ms. Jerrel to provide the committee with                 
  a copy of the ballot question regarding term limitations.                    
  MS. JERREL indicated that she would be happy to provide a                    
  copy of the ballot question to the committee.                                
  Number 387                                                                   
  REP. KOTT mentioned that a 20 percent response rate was                      
  considered to be a very high rate of return.                                 
  Number 394                                                                   
  REP. JAMES said that as a former NFIB member, she felt that                  
  their questionnaires were very indicative of the attitudes                   
  of the members.                                                              
  MS. JERREL said that the ballots were designed to include                    
  what NFIB considered critical issues that would be addressed                 
  by the legislature.  She noted that the questionnaires                       
  included "pro" and "con" statements for each ballot                          
  Number 413                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked Ms. Jerrel if she believed that                        
  respondents meant that a person should serve either a                        
  maximum of eight years in the House, or a maximum of eight                   
  years in the Senate, or a maximum of eight years in each                     
  house for a total of 16 years.                                               
  MS. JERREL responded that the questionnaire had asked "How                   
  many terms should a member of the House of Representatives                   
  serve?" and "How many terms should a member of the Senate                    
  serve?"  She indicated that a majority had voted for eight                   
  years, in response to both questions.                                        
  MS. JERREL added that 93 percent of respondents to the House                 
  question advocated term limitations from four to eight                       
  years, and 88 percent advocated two Senate terms.  She said                  
  that she felt that was an indication that NFIB members might                 
  approve a cumulative term limitation of 12 years.                            
  Number 435                                                                   
  REP. KOTT said that his interpretation of the NFIB poll                      
  results showed that people favored service of eight years,                   
  period, whether in the House or the Senate.                                  
  Number 454                                                                   
  HEATH HILYARD, a POLITICAL SCIENCE STUDENT from the                          
  UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA-FAIRBANKS, testified in opposition to                   
  HJR 3.  He said that he had written a thesis paper on the                    
  issue of term limits.  He stated that 40 state legislatures                  
  had introduced legislation limiting the terms of                             
  legislators.  He noted that there had been a major push for                  
  term limitations in the state of Washington in 1990, but the                 
  effort had failed.                                                           
  MR. HILYARD said that term limitations robbed people of a                    
  legitimate choice and responsibility.  He stated that term                   
  limits gave voters an opportunity to not think, and took                     
  responsibility away from the voters.  He noted the growing                   
  distrust and disgust that citizens felt toward government.                   
  He called HJR 3 a "band-aid" solution to the problem.                        
  MR. HILYARD said that society was growing more and more                      
  ignorant about government.  He stated that his argument was                  
  solely ideological and theoretical.  He commented that the                   
  American people were becoming less responsive and less                       
  responsible.  He stated that HJR 3 would take away Alaskans'                 
  right to a legitimate choice.                                                
  MR. HILYARD expressed his opinion that the "power elite" in                  
  American society was the voting public.  He said that                        
  instead of short-term remedies, government should instead                    
  focus on educating citizens.                                                 
  Number 522                                                                   
  REP. GREEN expressed his appreciation for Mr. Hilyard's                      
  testimony.  He asked him to discuss the advantages enjoyed                   
  by incumbent legislators.                                                    
  Number 554                                                                   
  MR. HILYARD commented that incumbents did have some                          
  advantages over non-incumbents.  He reiterated his point                     
  that education was the ultimate answer to society's                          
  problems, not term limits.  He cited the need for increased                  
  ethical standards and campaign regulation.  He said term                     
  limits might be unconstitutional.                                            
  Number 598                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON noted that he was an incumbent legislator now,                 
  but he got to be an incumbent legislator by beating an                       
  incumbent.  He added that it was not impossible to beat an                   
  incumbent legislator.  He asked Mr. Hilyard to discuss some                  
  good aspects of term limits.                                                 
  Number 609                                                                   
  MR. HILYARD replied that the purpose behind term limit                       
  legislation was good.  He said term limits would protect the                 
  American people from corrupt politicians, to some extent.                    
  He noted that ultimately, however, term limits did a                         
  disservice to the American people, as they prevented                         
  citizens from having the opportunity to become more educated                 
  and aware so that they would be able to spot corrupt                         
  Number 664                                                                   
  REP. KOTT asked Mr. Hilyard to think about representative                    
  democracy and the public's desire for term limits, in light                  
  of his testimony in opposition to term limits.                               
  Number 670                                                                   
  MR. HILYARD expressed his opinion that "delegates" were                      
  weather vanes of public opinion, whereas "representatives"                   
  made decisions for the good of the people.  He said that he                  
  did not believe in the delegate theory, but rather in the                    
  representative theory of democracy.                                          
  Number 694                                                                   
  REP. JAMES offered an amendment changing the word "eleven"                   
  to "fourteen" on line 12 of CSHJR 3(STA).                                    
  Number 698                                                                   
  REP. KOTT objected.  He said the committee had already voted                 
  on that amendment.                                                           
  Number 700                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that he would rule Rep. James' motion                   
  in order, because if the committee failed to pass out HJR 3,                 
  it would die in the Judiciary Committee.                                     
  Number 704                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON asked why letting HJR 3 die in committee was                   
  not a viable option.                                                         
  TAPE 93-31, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 003                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER ruled that Rep. James' motion was in order.                  
  Number 012                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON objected to Rep. James' motion, for the                        
  purpose of amending her amendment, replacing "fourteen" with                 
  "fifteen."  Hearing objection, a roll call vote was taken.                   
  Reps. Nordlund and Davidson voted "yea."  Reps. Kott,                        
  Phillips, Green, James and Porter voted "nay."  And so, the                  
  amendment to the amendment failed.                                           
  A roll call vote was taken on amending CSHJR 3(STA) to                       
  replace "eleven" with "fourteen."  Reps. Nordlund, Phillips,                 
  Davidson, James and Porter voted "yea."  Reps. Kott and                      
  Green voted "nay."  And so, the amendment was adopted.                       
  REP. GREEN noted that he was still concerned that language                   
  on line 10 of the resolution might restrict some Senators                    
  from serving more than four years due to reapportionment.                    
  Number 123                                                                   
  REP. PHILLIPS said the committee should move the bill out,                   
  but request that the Legal Services Division clarify the                     
  language regarding Senate terms later.                                       
  REP. JAMES stated that the Judiciary Committee had no                        
  business passing on a piece of legislation that would not                    
  pass legal muster.                                                           
  Number 135                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER commented that he was concerned with the                     
  language pertaining to Senate terms, but not terribly                        
  confident about the proposed solution to the problematic                     
  REP. JAMES said the committee could craft the bill so as to                  
  put a limit on the cumulative number of years that a person                  
  could serve in the legislature and not break the requirement                 
  down any further with regard to House and Senate terms.  She                 
  suggested that the Legal Services Division explore some                      
  other ideas for term limitations.                                            
  CHAIRMAN PORTER responded that the committee could not ask                   
  the Legal Services Division to come up with the "best"                       
  option, as HJR 3 set out one method in particular.                           
  Number 180                                                                   
  REP. GREEN suggested that a subcommittee be appointed to                     
  create acceptable language for HJR 3.                                        
  Number 187                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER appointed Reps. Nordlund and Kott, along                     
  with himself, to form a subcommittee on HJR 3.                               
  REP. KOTT stated that because he was a co-sponsor of HJR 3,                  
  he would request that the Chairman appoint another member to                 
  serve on the subcommittee in his stead.                                      
  CHAIRMAN PORTER appointed Rep. Green to serve on the                         
  subcommittee, instead of Rep. Kott.                                          
  Number 197                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON applauded the decision to hold HJR 3 in                        
  committee, due to the gravity of constitutional amendments.                  
  He said that he would like to understand why the delegates                   
  to the Constitutional Convention opted not to impose term                    
  limitations.  He questioned what had happened since the                      
  Constitutional Convention that would warrant the imposition                  
  of term limitations.                                                         
  REP. DAVIDSON mentioned Mr. Hilyard's comment about the need                 
  to educate citizens.  He said that when constitutional                       
  amendments were hurried through the legislative process, the                 
  legislature was guilty of not taking the time to educate                     
  constituents.  He said the committee had touched on a few                    
  arguments for and against term limits, but commented that                    
  the committee had only scratched the surface.  He urged the                  
  committee to consult with constitutional lawyers and with                    
  people in other states that had term limits.                                 
  Number 247                                                                   
  REP. JAMES said she would consult with her constituents on                   
  the issue of term limitations, and asked the Chairman to not                 
  bring HJR 3 back before the committee until she had time to                  
  do so.                                                                       
  CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that the subcommittee would endeavor                  
  to rework the language in HJR 3 and bring the resolution                     
  back before the committee at a time uncertain.                               

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