Legislature(1997 - 1998)
01/20/1998 03:30 PM Senate STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SB 214 - PEACE OFFICERS/ CONCEALED WEAPONS
MS. PORTIA PARKER, staff to Senator Miller, presented SB 214. She
said the bill makes two changes to recently enacted SB 141. She
explained the reason for the bill was to address a problem
unintentionally created by a last-minute amendment to the bill last
session. The bill as-is inadvertently limits the ability of a peace
officer to carry a concealed weapon while on duty in their first
year of service. This bill is a result of cooperation with the
Alaska Peace Officers Association and allows officers and certain
administrative officers to carry a concealed weapon while on or off
the job without having to obtain a state permit.
MR. LEONARD ABEL identified himself as a pro-gun member of the NRA
and a concealed carry permittee as well as a Ph.D. in clinical
psychology and the Community Mental Health Services Program
Administrator for the Division of Mental Health and Developmental
Disabilities. He stated he had worked with Representative James'
staff on the original bill, especially in relation to mental health
issues. He said now the Department of Public Safety (DPS) has the
ability to deny a permit to a person who had a serious mental
illness, whether they had been committed of not. To invoke this,
the person would have been brought to the attention of the
department. So far, he said, only one person has been denied a
permit by this procedure. He explained that by changing Section 12
in SB 141, this requirement would be dropped and only people who
have been committed could be denied. He believes there are people
out there who have not been committed who should not carry
concealed weapons. This is his main concern and he believes it
could be rectified by a return to the original language of the
bill. He does not believe it is overly restrictive as it requires
an illness that substantially impairs a persons actions or
perceptions.
SENATOR MACKIE wondered how Mr. Abel proposed the issuers of the
permits would determine a person's mental illness. He asked how
this could be accomplished without the infringement of a person's
civil liberties.
Number 261
MR. ABEL said court action records could be obtained or other
information may surface.
SENATOR MACKIE asked again if someone has never been officially
diagnosed, who would decide if a permit should be issued.
MR. ABEL replied a person denied can appeal and any allegations
could be checked out.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if anyone off the street could offer an
opinion that would lead to a denial.
MR. ABEL suggested that it has only happened once in 7,500 permits
and seems the appropriate thing to do.
SENATOR MACKIE expressed discomfort with vague definitions but
agreed with the idea. He wondered if the vague wording might cause
legal or constitutional problems.
MR. ABEL replied that with the change there might be more control
available when the situation arose.
SENATOR GREEN appreciated Mr. Abel's attempt to balance the issues
at stake. She stated that the scope of the bill was limited to a
fix of SB 141 and she planned it would stay that way.
SENATOR DUNCAN commented that he thought Mr. Abel's testimony was
important and he was willing to offer an amendment to broaden the
bill's scope. He moved his amendment which he explained addressed
the concerns regarding mental illness, indicted felons, and
domestic violence facilities.
There was objection to the amendment and it was held for
discussion.
Lauree Hugonin, Executive Director of the Alaska Network on
Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault (ANDVSA) realized this was
targeted to the law enforcement problem, but hoped it could be
broadened to include ANDVSA's concerns. Her first concern regarded
misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence. She said these will not be
covered under SB 141, thus not applicable to the prohibition
against applying for a permit. Her second concern was court orders
- certain protective orders do not fall under the federal
definition which would keep violators of these kind of orders from
possessing handguns. She expressed a third concern about facilities
providing services to victims of domestic violence. She said the
difference between the state and federal definitions of domestic
violence misdemeanors has to do with elements of the crime. Federal
domestic violence misdemeanors require the use of force or the
threatened use of a deadly weapon by people in certain types of
relationships. The definitions restrict the crimes that would be
covered and ANDVSA believes offenders of these crimes should not be
allowed to obtain a concealed carry permit. She said this was the
case prior to SB 141. She added that all court orders will not be
covered, only those with a specific finding prohibiting domestic
violence. Her last concern regarded domestic violence shelters. She
spoke to an amendment prohibiting carrying concealed weapons in
domestic violence shelters, saying all programs are not shelters
and therefore all are not covered and should be. She stated her
concerns were voiced in order of priority.
SENATOR DUNCAN said he believed his amendment would address most of
the concerns of ANDVSA.
MR. DEAN GUANELI, representing the Department of Law (DOL) spoke to
the concerns of prosecutors relating to those people charged with
felony crimes attempting to obtain a concealed carry permit. He
agreed with Senator Taylor that theoretically good judges would
impose restrictions on carrying firearms in many cases. However, he
believes that judges might not necessarily do this unless the
alleged crime involved a weapon. He suggested that theory does not
mirror practice. DOL thinks this restriction is important and is
sufficiently narrow.
SENATOR MILLER remarked that it seems we are going in a direction
that assumes guilt until innocence is proven and he has a problem
with this.
MR. GUANELI understood this concern but says the courts currently
lock people up until trial when the evidence warrants it and thinks
it is not much more to deny them concealed weapons.
SENATOR MILLER wanted to know if these people could openly carry a
weapon.
MR. GUANELI affirmed they could, unless restricted by a judge.
SENATOR MACKIE wondered if this applied to any type of felony.
MR. GUANELI said as it is, yes, but it could be limited to certain
types of offenses.
SENATOR WARD asked how many judges fail to impose restrictions. He
added that he would like those judges' names.
MR. GUANELI was unsure, he said he would get the information but
estimated it to be in the hundreds.
TAPE 98-1 SIDE B
Number 001
SENATOR GREEN asked if their was a prohibition for indicted felons
in federal law.
MR. GUANELI thought so, prohibiting the purchase of a firearm.
SENATOR GREEN believed the prohibition covered purchase or
possession, so this was unnecessary at the state level.
MR. GUANELI said if that was the case, it was unnecessary. He added
as clarification he did not believe the prohibition applied to
indicted felons, only convicted felons.
MR. GUANELI restated his previous point that a judge may not impose
a weapons restriction on a person indicted, unless the crime
involved a weapon.
SENATOR GREEN interjected that we all know these people don't get
permits in the first place. She said she had no problem saying
criminals should not carry weapons.
JAYNE ANDREEN, Director of the Council on Domestic Violence and
Sexual Assault, agreed with Lauree Houginin's testimony and added
that the State of Alaska adopted the Domestic Violence Prevention
and Victim Protection Act of 1996. She said this is a model code on
domestic violence from a national level. It is used across the
nation to evaluate states' progress. She stated an expert in the
field has said Alaska has one of the most comprehensive bodies of
statute in the country. She repeated Ms. Houginin's point about the
difference in state and federal misdemeanor standards and urged the
committee to look at the proposed amendment which, in her opinion,
is vitally important to continue protecting victims in Alaska.
DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner of the Department of Public Safety
(DPS), administers the concealed handgun permit program. He has
worked with staff on the law enforcement problem in the past. He
says the current problem may affect 100 people at any given time
and is affecting eight people in Juneau at this time. He would like
to see this bill passed in a timely manner to address this concern
and prevent future problems for law enforcement. He shared concerns
about domestic violence shelters as previously expressed but stated
SB 214 does correct his main concern.
SENATOR MACKIE repeated his question about how a determination
might be made that a person is mentally ill.
MR. SMITH said in this one case where a permit was denied,
information was provided by a person who knew the applicant. He
said staff cannot determine mental illness at the permit counter
but would like to reserve the right to use discretion.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if discretion would be used like police
officers on the street employ.
MR. SMITH replied that his concern was if the department had not
received this information, this person would have gotten a permit.
He said the department does contact local police departments prior
to issuing a permit but application of the federal standard would
have not allowed them to deny this person a permit.
SENATOR MACKIE agreed with this but expressed concern with the
possibility of infringement of rights due to another person's
personal agenda.
MR. SMITH reminded the committee that a person dissatisfied with
the denial of a permit can make a complaint and the department
would investigate the source. He said they are not being arbitrary
denying people permits.
SENATOR WARD asked if this person denied a permit could carry
openly.
MR. SMITH said as far as he knows, yes.
SENATOR WARD repeated his question, saying even though the
department received information about this person, he was not
adjudicated and could carry openly then and now.
MR. SMITH agreed that he had not been adjudicated and could carry
openly then and now.
MS. PORTIA PARKER returned to say it was her understanding that
federal law prohibited anyone under felony indictment from
purchasing or possessing a firearm. She stated that with the
current definition of mental illness there would be no prohibition
against a person carrying a weapon. She added that under the law
two class A misdemeanors in a six-year period would disallow a
person from being eligible for a concealed carry permit. She said
it was a conscious decision by the bill sponsor to omit a
prohibition on carrying concealed weapons on private property and
they would be opposed to an amendment expanding a prohibition to
private property.
SENATOR MILLER introduced the committee substitute and Ms. Parker
explained the changes as a suggestion from the bill drafter,
changing local to municipal and clarifying the type of law
enforcement administrative officers to whom the bill would apply.
SENATOR DUNCAN reminded the committee of his amendment but held his
motion at this time.
SENATOR WARD moved the adoption of CSSB 214(STA). He stated perhaps
he and Senator Duncan could work jointly on other issues proposed
in another piece of legislation.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if the amendment was drafted correctly to the
bill. He agreed that section seven of the amendment regarding
mental health should be addressed, due to Mr. Abel's testimony.
SENATOR GREEN repeated that she would like to have people deal with
other concerns in separate legislation. She said this bill is to
make a correction to the previous bill as it relates to peace
officers.
SENATOR WARD offered his belief that adjudication is necessary
before a person's right to bear arms is taken away. He would like
better definition of this issue.
SENATOR DUNCAN expressed to the committee the seriousness of his
amendment and believed the testimony of the experts in law
enforcement and domestic violence should be addressed immediately.
He feared if they were not, they may never reach discussion again.
He said he would like clarification on the federal law regarding
purchase or purchase and possession of firearms and believes the
committee should err on the side of safety. He expressed confidence
in the people working with victims of domestic violence and
validated their concerns regarding domestic violence facilities. He
recounted that there had been lengthy discussion regarding the
difference between carrying openly and carrying concealed and in
his view it was a major difference. He asked the committee to
divide the amendment into four parts: part one being subsection 7
regarding mental illness; part two regarding a person charged with
a felony; part three dealing with the crimes of domestic violence
and stalking and the fourth part dealing with the facilities
providing services to victims of domestic violence. He found these
four topics important enough to merit separate rulings by the
committee. He moved the division of the amendment.
SENATOR WARD objected, roll was taken and the motion failed four to
one.
SENATOR DUNCAN appreciated the vote on division of the amendment
and renewed his motion to move the entire amendment.
SENATOR MACKIE said he would vote no on the amendment, agreeing
with Senator Duncan on some points but saying it was crucial to
address the law enforcement problem immediately.
Roll was taken and the amendment failed four to one.
SENATOR WARD moved the bill be passed out of committee with
individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note.
Without objection, the bill was moved.
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