Legislature(1997 - 1998)
02/18/1998 01:35 PM Senate CRA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SB 191 - EXCHANGE OF STATE TIDE AND SUBMERGED LAND
CHAIRMAN MACKIE brought SB 191 before the committee as the final
order of business. He turned the gavel over to Senator Phillips
while he made a presentation on his bill.
SENATOR MACKIE, prime sponsor of SB 191, said it was introduced as
a companion bill to SB 190 to deal with some of these land issues.
He explained that if a municipality needs an area for a watershed
to the protect the community's water supply, or for a ferry
terminal, or for an airport, etc., the legislation gives DNR the
option of exchanging tide and submerged lands for privately owned
lands needed by a municipality. He said it is another option that
would allow DNR to have a little more flexibility to work with the
private landowners to accomplish a public good.
Number 508
RICK HARRIS, Senior Vice President, Sealaska Corporation, said
approximately 10 percent of the land in Southeast Alaska is in
private ownership, but most of that land is disproportionately
located in and around the state's municipalities. Frequently,
these lands needed by the municipalities for essential municipal
services are held in private ownership. Sealaska supports
creating a new mechanism that would allow the state to acquire
those essential municipal lands and at the same time allow the
private landowners to receive some other value that would serve
their purposes and needs.
Mr. Harris said that under current law, DNR is already authorized
to negotiate land exchanges, but these general land exchange
statutes are quite discretionary, and there is no vehicle through
which either a municipality or another state agency can compel DNR
to commit state-owned lands to improve public purposes. Also, the
existing law lacks a clear statement of legislative priorities to
guide DNR in the types of exchanges which the agency should focus.
Concluding, Mr. Harris said Sealaska thinks SB 191 will provide an
excellent opportunity to resolve some of the issues dealt with on
a daily basis throughout the state.
Number 475
Responding to SENATOR PHILLIPS, MR. HARRIS explained Sealaska
Corporation owns municipal watersheds in Hydaburg, has selection
rights in the municipal watershed of Craig, and owns municipal
watersheds in Kake and Hoonah. On three different occasions,
Sealaska has attempted to find vehicles to create land exchanges
that would allow them to move away from those watersheds and get
them back into public ownership, and in all cases, those efforts
have been thwarted for a variety of reasons.
Number 440
JANE ANGVIK, Division of Land, Department of Natural Resources,
testifying via teleconference from Anchorage, said DNR has some
significant concerns about SB 191 in general, particularly with the
prospect of transferring tidelands to private ownership. The state
has a legal responsibility under the public trust doctrine to
retain most tidelands and submerged lands. This is because DNR is
required, through the public trust doctrine, to manage the
shoreline lands for the use and enjoyment of all Alaskans. She
pointed out that most other states do not allow private individuals
to acquire shore lands, and in the past, many that did so have
spent millions of dollars to reacquire these public lands.
Ms. Angvik said that while existing statutes allow DNR to transfer
tidelands to municipalities, the Legislature specifically
prohibited municipalities from selling these lands. She pointed
out that in the areas Mr. Harris made reference to, Hydaburg,
Craig, Kake, Hoonah, the state has very little land so that the
possibility for land exchanges is very slim simply because they
don't have anything to exchange.
Ms. Angvik said the notion of public trust requires that access to
the water, water allocation, and marine activities are protected in
perpetuity in order to provide for the common use of the land.
Ms. Angvik also expressed concern with the issue of valuing
tidelands and trying to ascertain the value of tidelands relative
to the value of uplands. This is a challenge because there aren't
very many tidelands that have actually been conveyed.
Ms. Angvik pointed out that Section 14(c)(3) of Alaska Native
Claims Settlement Act provided for local governments to have up to
1,280 acres to use for municipal purposes, so while DNR is very
supportive of providing some surety for municipal governments,
particularly in Southeast Alaska, to controlling their watersheds
for example, they do not believe that conveying the tidelands is
the methodology to pursue.
Number 364
CHAIRMAN MACKIE pointed out that Section 14(c)(3) applies to
village corporations, not regional corporations like Sealaska. The
fact is that Sealaska Corporation physically owns the land and the
watersheds of those other communities. He questioned how Sealaska
is supposed to be compensated or treated fairly in giving up those
lands for a public purpose if DNR doesn't have any land to exchange
and they are not able to do a land exchange with them. He added
that the purpose of SB 191 is to give DNR an option to deal with
this issue, an option that they would have available to them in
cases that make sense for absolute public need for essential public
services. MS. ANGVIK responded that the capacity of DNR to be able
to evaluate the public interest and the long-term interests of the
state is removed by the legislation and it is a mandatory
requirement. While she understands the difficulty associated with
community development, in particular Southeast Alaska where the
vast majority of the land is owned by the federal government, she
doesn't have alternative ways of compensating a private landowner
if what they owned is the watershed.
DICK MYLIUS, Division of Land, Department of Natural Resources ,
also pointed out that if DNR transferred title it is no longer land
managed by the department, and even though the landowner may
currently allow public use or access by the public, once it is
their land they can change that policy in the future. In other
states the courts have actually gone back and reacquired public
trust lands where the public has lost access to the shoreline.
Number 301
JOHN JENSEN, Department of Transportation & Public Facilities, said
eminent domain proceedings are a tool DOT uses that provides the
least cost to the public, and it is most often the most expedient
way to acquire lands.
CHAIRMAN MACKIE asked Mr. Jensen if he saw this legislation as
something positive where DOT wouldn't have to come up with the
cash; that by working with the municipality and DNR they exchange
some tidelands adjacent to an upland ownership which is all private
anyway. MR. JENSEN responded that it may be appropriate in some
instances, but he agrees with Ms. Angvik that if the agency is
required to do that then it becomes somewhat of an obstacle to
development of that particular project. He suggested it should be
voluntary between both parties.
Number 205
LISA BLACHER, representing the Alaska Conservation Voice, stated
their support for the protections in current law that ensure public
access to navigable and public waters of the state. They are
concerned that the proposed changes in SB 191 will weaken those
protections by allowing state tide and submerged lands to become
privately owned through land exchanges.
Ms. Blacher stated that the Alaska Conservation Voice's concern is
with access because right now Alaska does have public access to all
of these state tide and submerged lands. At the very least, they
would like the bill to limit the transfer of state tide and
submerged lands within municipal boundaries so as to not open up
the entire state for that type of transfer opportunity.
There being no further testimony on SB 191, CHAIRMAN MACKIE said it
was his intention to move the bill on to the Resources Committee.
SENATOR DONLEY moved SB 191 and the accompanying fiscal note be
passed out of committee with individual recommendations. Hearing
no objection, it was so ordered.
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