Legislature(2021 - 2022)BUTROVICH 205
05/05/2021 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
Note: the audio ![]()
and video ![]()
recordings are distinct records and are obtained from different sources. As such there may be key differences between the two. The audio recordings are captured by our records offices as the official record of the meeting and will have more accurate timestamps. Use the icons to switch between them.
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB134 | |
| SB133 | |
| SB79 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | SB 133 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | SB 134 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| += | SB 79 | TELECONFERENCED | |
SB 133-REMOTE RECREATIONAL SITES; SALES; PERMITS
3:59:22 PM
CHAIR REVAK reconvened the meeting and announced the
consideration of SENATE BILL NO. 133 "An Act relating to the
sale or lease of state land for remote recreational sites;
relating to permits for remote recreational sites; and providing
for an effective date."
3:59:47 PM
MARTY PARSONS, Director, Division of Mining, Land, and Water,
Department of Natural Resources (DNR), Anchorage, Alaska, stated
SB 133 is another step to fulfill the intent of art. VIII, sec.
1 of the Constitution of the State of Alaska to encourage
settlement of Alaska lands consistent with the public interest.
He said just three percent of the land in Alaska is in private
ownership and this administration intends to expand that.
MR. PARSONS displayed the pie chart on slide 3 that shows the
breakdown of land ownership in Alaska. The federal government is
the largest landowner with 59 percent; state ownership is 26
percent but will increase to about 30 percent once the state
receives all its entitlement; the Alaska Native Claims
Settlement Act (ANCSA) corporations hold about 12 percent; and
about 3 percent is in private ownership, which includes
municipalities.
MR. PARSONS reviewed the different ways SB 133 provides for
Alaskans to procure land in Alaska. The slide read as follows:
• Lands can be identified and offered through the
State Land Sales program
• The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) will
maintain a list of lands available for remote
recreational sites
• The State will identify areas where land is
properly classified for settlement and may be
staked for remote recreational sites
• Individuals can nominate open state land not
included in the annual state offering for remote
recreational sites
• Multiple ways to procure a site:
• Purchase
• Lease
• Permit
4:03:24 PM
MR. PARSONS described the current Remote Recreational Cabin Site
Program under AS 38.05.600. The state identifies up to 20 acres
of state land per parcel for disposal under a lottery.
Successful individuals are able to stake their own parcel. The
difference between the current RRCS program and the former
programs is that the current program is open to residents only,
it has no "prove-up" requirements, and the resident has the
opportunity to own the land. He said DNR goes through a public
interest finding and public process before offering the land as
part of the staking program.
4:05:15 PM
SENATOR VON IMHOF read the last bullet point on slide 5, "Since
2001 DNR has offered staking in 81 staking areas over 14
offerings." She asked for a description of a staking area and
the definition of an "offering."
MR. PARSONS directed attention to the examples on slide 7 of
staking areas from previous RRCS offerings. He elaborated that a
staking area is land DNR has identified as appropriate for
staking within a larger offering area. For example, DNR may
identify 15 authorizations within a 20,000 acre offering area.
4:07:19 PM
SENATOR VON IMHOF asked how many individual parcels and total
acres the division has sold since 2001.
MR. PARSONS answered he would follow up with information.
SENATOR VON IMHOF asked for an estimate and whether each staking
area has about 50 parcels.
4:08:07 PM
MR. PARSONS answered it depends on the individual offering. Some
offerings could be 20,000 acres with 50 parcels and others could
be 7,500 acres with just 4 or 5 parcels. He said he did not have
the numbers in his head, but he would get the information to the
committee quickly.
4:08:48 PM
SENATOR STEVENS asked if the difference between prove-up and no
prove-up is that prove-up means a person builds a cabin and no
prove-up means they do not build a cabin.
MR. PARSONS answered that is correct; the old staking programs
required certain improvements. Under the Remote Recreational
Cabin Staking program, the individual who staked the land was
able to move into a three-year lease so they could get the land
surveyed and appraised. They were allowed to make improvements,
but it was not required. After that the individual could move
into a land purchase contract.
4:10:01 PM
SENATOR STEVENS commented he thought the idea was for these
parcels to be improved. He asked if somebody could lease a
parcel for three years, do nothing, and end up owning the land.
MR. PARSONS answered that is technically correct. Most of the
parcels are fairly remote and it is up to the individual who
staked the land to use it for recreational purposes as they see
fit.
SENATOR MICCICHE asked if the bill repeals the current program
and proposes a new one. He shared that he participated in the
Day Harbor staking years ago and he was not sure the process was
as sound as it could have been.
MR. PARSONS answered yes; SB 133 repeals the program under AS
38.05.600 and replaces it with a new one.
4:12:00 PM
SENATOR KAWASAKI asked if a tent platform would be an acceptable
prove-up.
MR. PARSONS answered the current Remote Recreational Cabin
Staking program does not have a prove-up requirement. An
individual stakes the land then has it surveyed and appraised.
Improvements are at the individual's discretion, whether it is a
tent platform, camping site, or a more permanent structure.
SENATOR KAWASAKI asked if a parcel under the staking program
could be used for a commercial purpose.
MR. PARSONS answered no.
4:13:21 PM
SENATOR BISHOP asked if commercial guides and outfitters are
excluded.
MR. PARSONS answered the Remote Cabin Staking program may not be
used for a commercial purpose; that was part of the impetus for
the commercial provision in what is currently SB 97.
4:14:05 PM
MR. PARSONS directed attention to slides 7 and 8 and explained
they are intended to illustrate the remote staking program has
had offerings and authorizations statewide. The offerings range
from Nome to Lake Louise, to Southcentral to Southeast.
4:14:56 PM
MR. PARSONS paraphrased slides 9-10 that provide an overview of
what is in SB 133. The slides read as follows:
• Repeals existing RRCS program
• Provides for Commissioner to identify areas where
land is properly classified for settlement and
offer those lands for staking of remote
recreational sites
• Identifies who is eligible to participate in the
program
• Establishes what parcel size may be staked by an
eligible participant 10 acres
• Provides for Alaskans to nominate lands for
inclusion
• Requires information necessary for identifying
staked parcel
• Process for handling conflicting staked parcels
• Directs the Commissioner to establish regulations
to implement the program
• Establishes process for staking and purchasing a
piece of state land for a remote recreational
site
• Sale price is fair market value
• Applicant must survey and appraise the site
• Also establishes a process for staking and
leasing of state land for remote recreational
sites
• Establishes process for leasing a remote
recreational site
• Initial 10-year leasing period
• Two additional 10-year lease renewal periods
• Restricts assignment of a lease
• Termination of lease for non-compliance
• Establishes timeframe for surveying and
appraising
• Requirement for marking of parcel boundaries
4:18:27 PM
SENATOR BISHOP asked if DNR does the appraisal and bills for it.
MR. PARSONS answered the intention is for the individual to be
responsible for both the survey and appraisal and the rules for
that can be handled through the regulatory process.
SENATOR BISHOP said he assumes the surveyor would need to be
licensed in this state.
MR. PARSONS answered that is correct; an official survey must be
done by a licensed surveyor.
SENATOR MICCICHE referenced earlier conversations that in part
led to the bill. He said the problem is that some families have
leased land for generations. He asked if those parcels that are
under lease could be included in this program with the current
leaseholders being given the right of first refusal.
4:20:44 PM
MR. PARSONS said the reference is to the Personal Use Cabin
Program. DNR believes that except in areas where the cabins
would be in a legislatively designated area, there will be an
opportunity for the leaseholders to participate in this program
and convert their lease to a purchase.
SENATOR MICCICHE asked if that could be interpreted to mean that
there is a path forward.
MR. PARSONS answered the division's intent is to allow the
individuals who participated in the PUCP program to gain title
to those lands.
4:21:46 PM
SENATOR STEVENS asked him to talk about the assignment of a
lease and the restrictions that will be placed on the
assignment.
MR. PARSONS answered the language on paragraph (1) on page 10,
lines 13-14, states the lease may not be assigned, conveyed, or
otherwise transferred, except though an estate or intestate
succession.
4:22:40 PM
SENATOR STEVENS summarized that a lease could pass to family
through a will.
MR. PARSONS answered that is correct and Mr. Orman with the
Department of Law was available to correct him if he misspoke.
CHAIR REVAK asked Mr. Orman for his opinion.
4:23:08 PM
CHRISTOPHER ORMAN, Assistant Attorney General, Civil
Division, Natural Resources Section, Department of Law,
Juneau, Alaska, agreed with Mr. Parsons. The lease may not
be assigned or conveyed but it can pass through estate or
intestate succession. He also noted that language in
paragraph (3) on page 10, lines 18-19 talks about the
restrictions DNR has the discretion to impose on the lease.
4:24:07 PM
SENATOR KIEHL asked if the biggest difference is there is
not a best interest finding and instead, people can stake
all the vacant unreserved land in a given parcel.
MR. PARSONS answered yes; there is no best interest finding. He
said it is DNR's understanding that the areas available for
people to stake would be a subset of the Vacant, Unappropriated,
Unreserved (VUU) land, and the commissioner could include all or
a portion of that land.
SENATOR KIEHL asked how to prevent the staking program
acreage from being on top of a coal seam or a site with
commercial mineral potential.
MR. PARSONS answered certain non-conveyable land classifications
would not be available to participate in the program.
SENATOR KIEHL commented, "We keep hearing we've got better
maps of the moon than of Alaska; I wonder if we're as
confident as all that."
4:26:06 PM
SENATOR VON IMHOF questioned the need to hire five full-
time employees as part of establishing a process for
leasing a remote recreational site. She mentioned hiring a
surveyor when DNR already has 10 surveyors on staff and
referenced an earlier statement about outsourcing surveying
and appraisal work. She asked if these hires were
necessary, particularly given that this administration is
trying to reduce the footprint of government.
4:26:58 PM
MR. PARSONS answered the division believes this program will be
very popular. If their analysis is correct, the program will
require a surveyor who primarily will write survey instructions,
review plats, and do the administrative work to identify the
parcels and ownership and ensure all the criteria for the
platting process are met. The anticipated workload will require
additional appraisers, land surveyors, and staff to administer
the program.
SENATOR VON IMHOF highlighted that the Department of Natural
Resources has 210 employees, including 10 fulltime level I land
surveyors, 12 fulltime level I natural resource managers, 52
fulltime level II natural resource specialists, and 4 fulltime
level II appraisers. She said she did not know these employees'
current workload or if the land surveying needs in DNR were
"huckity buck," but she wanted it on the record that she was
cautious and wary of the $750,000 fiscal note that calls for
five new fulltime employees.
4:29:41 PM
SENATOR BISHOP asked if individuals would have the option to
purchase these parcels under the same terms and conditions as
the current process; the state carries the note and individuals
make payments to the state.
MR. PARSONS answered yes.
4:30:43 PM
SENATOR KAWASAKI referenced the state map of VUU lands on slide
12 and asked if DNR has determined that each of the blue colored
parcels are not critical habitat or have something that would
preclude a sale.
MR. PARSONS answered that map is the division's current best
estimate of what VUU lands would be available for this program.
He added the caveat, "I cannot tell you 100 percent every acre
of that is unencumbered or is available." He said he could say
the land is not classified for habitat or minerals and it has
not been approved for municipal land entitlements. He added that
before the land is offered to the public a more rigorous
analysis would be necessary.
4:32:35 PM
SENATOR KAWASAKI referenced Section 2 and asked what additional
studies would be required for the director to make a written
finding that the best interest of the state will be served by
the process going forward. He cited a bill he worked on with the
director to make the current process easier.
MR. PARSONS answered the "035" best interest finding is not
necessary, but the division would still go through a rigorous
process to ensure the relevant lands are not encumbered by
pipelines, easements, leases, or other authorizations. This will
be similar to the current process initially, but less work will
be required in the end to convey the land and enter the
authorization, he said.
4:35:44 PM
SENATOR MICCICHE asked if he agreed that this iteration of the
remote cabin site program had a different system for basically
the same thing.
MR. PARSONS agreed that was fairly accurate; instead of discrete
parcels, this program looks statewide at what might be included
in the program.
SENATOR MICCICHE referred to the fiscal note analysis and asked
if $750,000 to $2.5 million in sales is expected over time.
MR. PARSONS answered that is the revenue estimate and $569,900
is the estimated expense for a net of less than $200,000.
4:38:24 PM
SENATOR BISHOP referenced the map on slide 10 and asked if the
parcels in blue are available for staking and lease.
MR. PARSONS answered it should be considered a preliminary
analysis of locations where land may be available.
SENATOR BISHOP noted the bill says an individual could nominate
outside those quadrants.
MR. PARSONS confirmed that was correct.
4:39:18 PM
CHAIR REVAK requested the sectional analysis for SB 133.
MR. PARSONS deferred to Mr. Orman for the sectional analysis.
4:39:42 PM
MR. ORMAN stated he was primarily available to answer legal
questions about the bill, but he could provide a summary.
CHAIR REVAK stated he would wait to hear the sectional
analysis during a subsequent hearing.
4:40:27 PM
SENATOR MICCICHE asked Mr. Parsons to provide better detail
on the lands available under the bill.
CHAIR REVAK requested he send the more detailed maps to the
committee.
SENATOR KIEHL noted the chair's staff had posted a more
detailed map on BASIS.
MR. PARSONS agreed a more detailed map was posted on BASIS. He
reiterated that this was just a preliminary look at the land
that potentially would be available.
CHAIR REVAK advised the committee would look at the detailed map
and follow up if there were questions on that or the sectional
analysis.
4:42:48 PM
CHAIR REVAK opened public testimony on SB 133; finding none, he
closed public testimony.
4:43:12 PM
CHAIR REVAK held SB 133 in committee.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| SB 134 Background - Related Statutes.pdf |
HRES 5/17/2021 1:00:00 PM SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 134 |
| SB 134 Sponsor Statement 4.30.2021.pdf |
HRES 5/17/2021 1:00:00 PM SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 134 |
| SB 134 Fiscal Note 4.31.21.pdf |
SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 134 |
| SB 134 Sectional Analysis 4.30.2021.pdf |
SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 134 |
| SB 134 Support Doc-BGCSB Final minutes 2.2020.pdf |
HRES 5/17/2021 1:00:00 PM SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 134 |
| SB 133 Sponsor Statement 4.27.21.pdf |
SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 133 |
| SB 133 Fiscal Note 4.26.21.pdf |
SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 133 |
| SB 133 Sectional Analysis 5.3.2021.pdf |
SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 133 |
| SB 79 CS ver W.pdf |
SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 79 |
| SB 79 ver W Explanation of changes.pdf |
SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 79 |
| SB 133 Remote Rec Presentation 5.5.2021.pdf |
SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 133 |
| SB 133 VUU Map (No Layers - Reduced).pdf |
SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 133 |
| SB 134 Support Letter APHA 5.5.21.pdf |
HRES 5/17/2021 1:00:00 PM SRES 5/5/2021 3:30:00 PM |
SB 134 |