Legislature(1999 - 2000)
03/24/1999 06:09 PM Senate FIN
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE BILL NO. 101
"An Act amending the definition of 'disaster.'"
This was the fourth hearing for this bill. Co-Chair John
Torgerson noted that during the last hearing, the committee
adopted CS Version "I" as a Workdraft.
Senator Sean Parnell moved for adoption of Amendment #5.
Co-Chair John Torgerson explained that it added an intent
section to the bill to alleviate fear that the committee
would change the way the Governor could receive federal
funds. He stated that the bill did not do that, but the
intent language was proposed to clarify the matter.
Without objection, Amendment #5 was adopted.
Senator Al Adams moved for adoption of Amendment #6. Co-
Chair John Torgerson objected. Senator Al Adams explained
the amendment would add the words, "an event including" to
page 4 line 8. The reason for this addition was to ensure
that FEMA funds would not be lost. Co-Chair John Torgerson
spoke to objection, saying that there could be other
interpretations to the language to suggest the disasters
would not be limited to the list, but that others could be
included.
Amendment #6 failed to be adopted by a vote of 2-7. Senator
Al Adams and Senator Pete Kelly cast the yea votes.
There was discussion by the committee to clarify the status
of the CS, past actions taken and the amendments proposed.
Break 6:15 PM / 6:22 PM
Senator Dave Donley moved for adoption of Amendment #7.
Senator Al Adams objected. Senator Dave Donley explained
that the amendment was mostly conforming language to make
Section 2 work. It would give the Legislature an option not
to convene a special session if the expenditure was over $5
million. It set up a method for the presiding officers to
poll the members of the Legislature and receive written
consent by the majority of the members of each body. It
would make the provision of polling of Legislatures
acceptable using telephonic facsimile, electronic mail or
other means of written communication. Co-Chair John
Torgerson referred to page 1 section 1 and noted the
language stating that the proclamation of disaster could
not last longer than 30 days unless extended by the
Legislature by law. He wondered if there shouldn't be a
conforming amendment to that provision also to possible
allow for the extension to be made other than with a law or
concurrent resolution. Senator Dave Donley countered that
the existing law said a disaster could not last longer than
30 days without concurrent resolution. Therefore, the same
problem existed under current law. Co-Chair John Torgerson
responded that the current law intended that the
Legislature would convene a special session and pass a law
for the extension. Senator Dave Donley said the distinction
between law and a concurrent resolution wouldn't be
impacted by this because, unless it was determined that the
current system was flawed and the special session law had
been ignored, the CS would become consistent even thought
it was inconsistent in current law. With the adoption of
Amendment #7 there was a possibility it could become
inconsistent again. Co-Chair John Torgerson said the bill
drafters would be directed to ensure conformity.
Senator Al Adams referred to page 2 line 1 of the Amendment
explained that if that was done, funding could be approved
for a disaster of over $1 million or, $5 million if the
federal government declared it. It would also give the
option to handle the funding through the legislative
process. He asked the sponsor to comment. Senator Dave
Donley said that would change the framework of the CS.
Senator Al Adams said it would make it simpler to get
access to the federal funds and to also implement Senator
Dave Donley's polling method. Senator Dave Donley said the
CS was intended to bring more accountability into the
system. By inserting the "or" the Governor would be free
to spend money without consulting the Legislature as long
as the federal government declared the disaster. Senator Al
Adams countered that the legislation shouldn't be made so
tight that when there was a disaster, the state would be
unable to respond. Senator Al Adams conceded that if the
sponsor did not agree with the proposed amendment to
Amendment #7, he would not offer it. Senator Dave Donley
thanked him and declined the amendment.
Without objection, Amendment #7 was adopted.
Amendment #8 was brought before the committee. Co-Chair
John Torgerson noted that page 2 lines 6-15 of the CS was
deleted by Amendment #7 thus affecting the proposed changes
in Amendment #8 to page 2 line 9 of the CS.
ANNETTE KREITZER, staff to Senator Loren Leman, spoke to
Amendment #8. She testified that no changes from Amendment
Amendment #8. She told the committee that proposed
deletions of, "26.23.300(c) and (d)" and insert of,
"26.23.300(b) and (c)" in Amendment #9 was simply a
function of what would happen on page 2 lines 22-26 of the
CS.
She quantified that this amendment was drafted as a result
of committee discussions about how to go through the
process. This would remove the $500,000 limit and provide
specific expenditures of up to $1 million from the disaster
relief fund. The qualifications would be, "to save lives,
protect property and public health and safety or lessen or
avert the threat of a disaster that posed a direct and
imminent threat of sufficient severity and magnitude to
justify state action." This language was taken from FEMA's
definition of emergency.
The next significant change was to page 3 line 7 of the CS,
the limiting section of specific types of disasters
allowable. It added "mitigate environmental damage" to the
release of oil or hazardous substances.
The next proposed change was to reduce the spending cap
from $5 million to $3 million on page 3 line 8. She
indicated that was a policy call for the committee to
decide what figure it chose to use.
Co-Chair John Torgerson interrupted asking that the
amendment be divided. There was discussion as to where the
division would occur.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked for clarification that the
first portion of the amendment would delete the half
million-dollar provision for smaller disasters and increase
it to $1 million. Annette Kreitzer affirmed explaining
that the reason for that change related to the definition
of disaster and the committee's action to separate out
certain disasters on page 3 lines 4-9 for specific
treatment by the Legislature. Co-Chair John Torgerson
noted that the $500,000 trigger was liberal and the
definition was very broad so that it could encompass the
smaller disasters. It had seemed an appropriate amount of
money to fund the smaller events and this change would
raise that amount and tighten the definition.
Annette Kreitzer said that was correct and that it was a
policy call for the committee. She noted the various
discussions relating to the bill. Co-Chair John Torgerson
asked if the $500,000 was in existing language. Annette
Kreitzer answered that the $1 million limit was the
existing language. Co-Chair John Torgerson thought the
$500,000 limit was also in current statute.
Co-Chair John Torgerson entertained a motion to divide the
question.
Senator Loren Leman moved for adoption of Amendment #8A.
This consisted of all of page 1 and page 2 lines 1-10
excluding lines 3-5 of Amendment #8.
Annette Kreitzer recommended including page 3 lines 21 and
22 of Amendment #8 noting that it was parallel language.
Senator Loren Leman amended his motion to include that in
Amendment #8A.
Senator Al Adams said it was difficult to understand the
amendment because it set different flooring levels relating
to the $500,000 and $1 million limits. It also was
difficult to understand what authority the governor would
have at different flooring levels. He suggested a change
of the word "possesses" to "poses". He then spoke to the
concerns of only allowing relief for one flood per
community. What would happen if there was a second flood
and the state wanted to save lives and protect property and
health? He then noted that the cost of most disasters was
above $3 million for Alaska and he felt the $5 million
limit should not be lowered. He complained about the
definitions of the disasters asking why the list did not
include disasters more likely to occur in Alaska. He would
vote no on the amendment.
Senator Lyda Green discussed the definition of disaster.
She referred to current statute and its reference it made
to US code. The definition included in the current
amendment was nearly identical to the current statute.
Therefore, this amendment would not depart from the
definition, it just hadn't been followed in the past.
Senator Al Adams rebutted that if that were the case, he
would ask where was the definition of severe winter storms
in the amended definition.
Senator Sean Parnell read the amendment differently. As he
understood, it would allow the Governor, without additional
Legislative authorization, to expend funds for the purposes
of saving lives, protecting property, etc. All this
amendment would do was bring to light the immediacy of the
impact to the people affected and give the Governor the
ability to fund those disasters. It did not set dollar
limits. Senator Loren Leman said Senator Sean Parnell was
correct.
Senator Loren Leman made technical amendment to the amended
Amendment #8A to change "possesses" to "poses" on page 1
line 12 and page 2 line 8.
Senator Al Adams still questioned what would happen in the
case of a second flood. Was it the intent of the sponsor to
prevent the state and federal government from assisting in
the protection of lives and property. Co-Chair John
Torgerson informed him there was another amendment that
addressed the flood provision. It was not his intent to not
allow assistance. He noted the two triggers of $5 million
for the first flood and $1 million for the next flood. He
detailed the provision.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked Annette to read the language
with the amended Amendment #8A incorporated. She read into
the record portions of the CS Version "I" as it would be
amended.
Senator Sean Parnell asked why, as a policy matter, did the
committee want to get rid of the $500,000 provision.
Annette subsection b the 500,000 . Annette Kreitzer
responded that this amendment was drafted in the initial
stages of the bill to reflect the feelings of the committee
at that time. She realized that the feelings might have
changed. Senator Sean Parnell liked the language but
questioned the deletion of the $500,000. Co-Chair John
Torgerson agreed saying it essentially raised the amount
that the governor could expend and that it had worked fine
in the past.
Senator Sean Parnell asked if an amendment to delete page 1
lines 4 and 5 of Amendment #8 would affect the provisions
on page 2 starting with line 22 of the CS Version "I".
Annette Kreitzer suggested a conceptional amendment to
direct the Division of Legal Services to conform the
language to include the saving lives and property provision
and retain the $500,000 provision. She gave detail.
Senator Sean Parnell moved to conceptually amend the
amended Amendment #8A. This would delete page 1 lines 4 and
5 of Amendment #8, and essentially retain the language on
page 2 lines 22-26 of the CS Version "I" and leave the
$500,000 trigger in the bill.
Senator Al Adams asked if that would affect the change to
renumber AS 26.23.300 as proposed on page 1 lines 1-3 of
Amendment #8 and also addressed in Amendment #7. Annette
commented that she saw it as a technical amendment to
conform to the bill. Senator Sean Parnell stated his intent
to have the bill drafters incorporate the necessary
technical changes. The intent of his motion was to retain
the language regarding the $500,000 provision.
Without objection, the amended Amendment #8A was again
amended.
Senator Lyda Green moved to conceptually amend Amendment
delete all of lines 24-26 of the CS Version "I" and be
replaced with the language from page 1 lines 11-13 of
Amendment #8. She read the proposed language into the
record.
Senator Sean Parnell questioned why the committee would do
that with the $500,000 trigger when it was included with
the $1 million trigger. He noted Senator Al Adams's point
that there were other smaller events that the state may
want to respond to. Senator Lyda Green responded that when
declaring disasters, the standard must be consistent or
there would be a risk of starting to assist in a disaster
and the cost running above the $500,000.
Senator Dave Donley understood this, if there was a small
disaster and the cost rose above the $500,000 it would be
pushed into the higher category and the additional
restrains would be imposed. Senator Lyda Green commented.
Tape: SFC - 99 #63, Side B 7:03 PM
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked if the language should be
inserted were intended by Amendment #8 rather than as
proposed in the amendment to the amended Amendment #8A.
Senator Dave Donley said that while there was a good
argument for accountability, there was an outweighed
argument for flexibility when the cost was below $500,000.
By allowing that flexibility, the Legislature did not give
up the greater accountability for the larger disasters.
Senator Lyda Green asked for clarification of the
restrictions between the $500,000 and $1 million dollar
expenditures. There was discussion on the subsections
affected.
Co-Chair John Torgerson restated the amendment into the
record. Senator Randy Phillips objected to the motion.
Senator Loren Leman felt the committee should roll back and
start over. He thought the committee had gotten off track
with this amendment.
Senator Lyda Green withdrew her motion to amend the amended
Amendment #8A.
Co-Chair John Torgerson noted that brought the committee
back to Amendment #8A as amended. Senator Al Adams
maintained his objection. He restated his earlier comments
that the amendment was difficult to understand and the
delegation of powers was also difficult to ascertain. He
noted that this bill could not be amended to adequately
satisfy all the member of the committee.
Amendment #8A as amended was adopted by a vote of 8-1.
Senator Al Adams cast the nay vote.
Senator Loren Leman stated that he would not offer
Amendment #8B. This consisted of page 2 lines 3-5 and lines
11-25 of Amendment #8.
Senator Loren Leman moved for adoption of Amendment #8C.
This consisted of page 3 lines 1-20 and the deletion of
page 2 lines 3-5 and lines 11-25 of Amendment #8. Senator
Lyda Green objected. Annette Kreitzer explained that the
portion remaining (page 3 lines 1-20) spoke to the
definition of disaster. This amendment would change the
definition to make it similar to the FEMA definition of
major disaster. She read the definition into the record.
She added that she had checked with the National Weather
Service to see how they defined prolonged cold
temperatures. She learned that they defined a short period
of cold a "cold snap" and a longer period of cold a "cold
spell". The term, "prolonged extreme cold" came from the
FEMA's reference to prolonged extreme heat.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked for clarification of the
intent of the amendment. Annette Kreitzer responded that
it was difficult for her to understand and that she was
only able to determine the new language rather than what
was deleted. She continued to detail the amendment. Co-
Chair John Torgerson noted that it would actually delete
the language down through line 8 of page 3 of the CS and
replace the entire definition.
Senator Gary Wilken asked for the rationale behind the
elimination of "or clothing". Annette said clothing was
considered property and was not listed separately under
FEMA language.
Co-Chair John Torgerson pointed out that the new definition
would also eliminate avalanche. Annette responded that it
was the intent of the amendment to stay within the FEMA
language. However, she said the severe extreme cold
provision was added and the committee could chose to add a
provision for avalanche also.
Senator Loren Leman moved to amend Amendment #8C to insert
"avalanche" to page 3 line 12 after "mudslide" in Amendment
Senator Lyda Green asked if other parts of the statute
referred to the US code that defined natural disaster. She
read the definition into the record. She felt the statute
had to either conform to the federal code or eliminate any
reference to it. Co-Chair John Torgerson said he would
entertain an amendment to do so.
Senator Al Adams asked if the statute reflected the US
code, would that make it easier to get federal funding.
Senator Dave Donley didn't think so.
Senator Al Adams wanted to know what events might happen in
Alaska that was not included in the definition. He had
concerns about the elimination of potential events that
might happen in the future. Co-Chair John Torgerson
explained that the Governor could still spend up to
$500,000 on them. If the Governor chose to declare the
event a disaster, he could spend up to $1 million. Any
amount more than that would then trigger the legislative
special session component.
Senator Lyda Green felt it should be called a "major"
disaster.
Break 7:24 PM / 7:40 PM
Senator Lyda Green moved to amend Amendment #8C as amended.
This would delete language on page 3 of the CS beginning
with "resulting" on line 4 and ending with "damage," on
line 7 and replace with different language, which she read
into the record. Co-Chair John Torgerson offered a
friendly amendment to the amendment to replace the language
to be inserted with, "as defined in AS 26.23.900(2)".
Senator Lyda Green accepted the friendly amendment.
Co-Chair John Torgerson noted that this amendment would
remove from the list of allowable disasters, epidemic,
explosion and riot. If this was the will of the committee,
he felt it should be noted in the record. Senator Lyda
Green stated that was her intent.
Without objection, the amendment to amend Amendment #8C as
amended was adopted.
Without objection, Amendment #8C as amended was adopted.
Senator Randy Phillips moved for adoption of Amendment #9.
Senator Al Adams asked how it compared to the changes made
with Amendment #8. Co-Chair John Torgerson explained that
this amendment would change the provisions regarding floods
to pay $5 million once. If costs exceeded $5 million, the
Legislature must approve expenditures using the polling
method. If a second flood occurred in the same geographical
area, the maximum amount allowed would be $1 million
without Legislative approval.
Senator Al Adams removed his objection. Without objection,
Amendment #9 was adopted.
JOHN SHIVELY, Commissioner, Department of Natural Resources
testified. He said his office delivered a letter to the
Senate Finance Committee that outlined the department's
concerns about the affect of the bill, which he didn't
think the committee intended. However, because of the
funding procedure, he thought there would be consequences
to the wildlife fire fighting services. In the past, the
program was funded from the disaster funds with the
department coming to the Legislature the next session with
a supplemental request to replenish the fund. Under this
bill, it would be necessary to declare a disaster and to
request additional funds from the Legislature before they
could be expended. Fire fighting costs over the last
several years averaged over $11 million. Because the new
bill set a $5 million limit, a special session would need
to be called each fire season.
He suggested a couple solutions. One was to pre-fund the
fire fighting program. He felt that could be problematic
for a number of reasons. Another solution would be for the
Legislature to exempt some wild land fire fighting. That
would allow the status quo by having the Legislative
leadership approve the funds as needed. Another solution
was to incorporate the polling of the Legislature to
convene a special session.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked what was the current limit
for spending on wildfires. Jon Shively responded that the
initial limit was whatever the Legislature appropriated.
Last year that amount was $3.5 million. When more was
expended, the department requested money from the disaster
relief fund. That fund usually was not sufficient, and a
request was made to the Governor. The Governor then
notified the Legislative leadership for approval for more
funds to continue to fight the fires. He stressed that the
costs constantly went over the initial appropriation.
There was no limit for fire fighting as such other than the
Legislative leadership deciding to refuse the request.
Co-Chair John Torgerson corrected him saying that the
Legislative leadership didn't approve additional funds,
only declining to convene a special session, thus allowing
the Governor to expend funds. Under the proposed bill, the
limit would be raised to $5 million. Jon Shively countered
that he did not interpret it that way. The spending limit
was not the problem; it was the fact that there was no
money in the fund. There was further discussion between Co-
Chair John Torgerson and Jon Shively on the matter.
Senator Al Adams asked if the Legislature would appropriate
more money to the disaster relief fund. Co-Chair John
Torgerson answered that chances were there would not be
additional funds. Senator Al Adams stated that he felt more
money should be appropriated. Co-Chair John Torgerson
understood but noted that this bill would allow the
Governor to use other funds for disasters without
legislative authority. He stressed that prior to this bill,
the Governor only had authority to expend up to $1 million.
This bill would allow him to spend up to $5 million.
Co-Chair John Torgerson noted that his office hadn't
received the aforementioned letter from the Department of
Natural Resources.
It was determined there was no one present wishing to
testify on the bill.
Co-Chair John Torgerson announced he did not intend to move
the bill from committee at this meeting. He would have a
new CS drafted for the committee to review. He ordered the
bill held in committee.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|