Legislature(2017 - 2018)BUTROVICH 205
02/01/2017 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
Note: the audio ![]()
and video ![]()
recordings are distinct records and are obtained from different sources. As such there may be key differences between the two. The audio recordings are captured by our records offices as the official record of the meeting and will have more accurate timestamps. Use the icons to switch between them.
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| Update on the Oil and Gas Competitiveness Review Board | |
| SB3 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| *+ | SB 3 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
SB 3-SMALL VESSEL WASTEWATER EXEMPTION; 1% ART
3:53:33 PM
CHAIR GIESSEL announced consideration of SB 3. It proposes
continuing a discharge exemption for certain vessels and
applying a waiver of the 1 percent for art for the new Alaska-
class ferries being built for use in the Alaska Marine Highway
System (AMHS).
She explained that the 1 percent for art provision dates to 1975
and requires if capital budget money is spent on public
facilities that 1 percent of the construction costs go toward
the acquisition and/or installation of art work. In 2006, a
voter initiative imposed discharge standards that were also
applied to the Alaska Marine Highway System that was then
exempted.
3:54:17 PM
SENATOR STEDMAN, Alaska State Legislature, Juneau, Alaska,
sponsor of SB 3, said this is an extension bill with another art
component. Looking at the exemption, Alaska has smaller ships,
mostly older, particularly the AMHS vessels. If AMHS was
required to comply, it would face a cost issue on their old
ships that are being phased out and the newer ones have a cost
and design issue.
He explained that retrofitting the old ships would cost $5
million, which is a low estimate, and exempting the three newer
ships could accommodate the state's current budgetary strains.
No visible impact from this exemption have been seen around
Southeast waters, and his office has not had any complaints
about discharges from the AMHS at all.
3:56:30 PM
SENATOR STEDMAN said the smaller cruise ships are concerning,
but even bringing those into compliance interferes with the
stability of the ships while the costs go way up. Information he
has indicates that amortizing those costs is difficult. Besides,
they haven't had a lot of complaints or issues from the smaller
cruise ships either.
3:57:16 PM
The other portion of the bill is the well-intended law dealing
with art work in buildings. But that requirement with the AMHS
vessels that will be retiring - one is in the news today if
anybody wants it for free - could be dealt with by taking art
out of the old ships and putting it into the new ones. It could
save $1-2 million per ship.
3:58:40 PM
SENATOR STEDMAN said cruise ship discharges is not a new issue
and most are familiar with it. The most contentious part of that
issue doesn't apply to this bill, which just keeps the status
quo. He encouraged support saying that representatives from the
Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) and AMHS could
provide details.
3:59:49 PM
SENATOR COGHILL asked if the retroactivity goes back to the
original requirements and if there is no sunset date.
SENATOR STEDMAN answered his understanding is that there is no
sunset date, and one isn't necessary, because the two new
ferries are probably going to last 50 years and the other small
cruise ships will be operating in Alaska's waters for decades.
They must also comply with best management practices that DEC
has tightened up. So, the industry is not getting a free ride,
by any means. This is one reason there aren't many complaints.
4:01:44 PM
SENATOR MEYER asked when this sunseted.
SENATOR STEDMAN answered January 1, 2016.
SENATOR MEYER asked what has been happening during this year.
SENATOR STEDMAN said Alaska has very law-abiding marine-related
businesses, but they just unintentionally ran past the deadline
and are catching up now, but DEC and Marine Highways could
better answer that.
4:03:09 PM
MICHELLE HALE, Director, Division of Water, Department of
Environmental Conservation (DEC), introduced herself and said
Ben White is the Cruise Ship Program Manager within the Division
of Water and has the technical expertise in this area.
4:03:36 PM
BEN WHITE, Manager, Cruise Ship Program, Division of Water,
Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC), Anchorage,
Alaska, explained that since January 2016 they have been working
with both AMHS and small vessel operators to continue operating
as they have. A lot of the best management practice plans are
good for five years, and a large majority of the vessels have
been covered under an already-approved plan. The newer vessels
were asked to submit a best management practices plan, which
they have done. He has reviewed them and offered technical
expertise, but they are not approved plans.
SENATOR COGHILL said it looks like a five-year plan is going to
be required and asked how much time it takes for the smaller
vessels to go through that process.
MR. WHITE answered that regulations in 18 AAC 69 spell out the
best management practices plan requirements. Currently, they go
through registration first. Then vessel operators will submit
vessel-specific sampling and best management practices plans
simultaneously. The requirements outline everything from an
engineer's report to explaining when the sampling will be
conducted. These typically take the smaller operators a little
bit of time to develop, because they don't have the staff and
resources that the larger commercial vessels have, and the
larger cruise ships don't have the expertise in-house, so DEC
staff engineers assist them in developing their plans. It
typically takes a month of back and forth to get these
developed. Once they are in place, the department works with
them, and if there are updates to the system due to poor sample
results the plan will be modified as they go along.
SENATOR COGHILL said that was a good answer, because sometimes
it takes three years to renew a five-year permit.
4:06:46 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI referenced language on page 3, sections 5
and 6, and asked how much sewage is being discharged into marine
waters on average.
MR. WHITE answered that a table was provided that demonstrates
the average discharges. A lot of water conservation takes place
on the smaller vessels, so their discharges are less.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI noted 11,619 gallons daily, and asked to
what level that water is treated.
MR. WHITE answered processing and treatment of the water is
still required. Most vessels have installed marine sanitation
devices that have to meet certain standards and are certified by
the Coast Guard. The discharge levels and limits are tied in
with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) water quality
standards. These marine sanitation devices get certified when
they are installed at the federal level. Then the program
monitors them to make sure that they are still meeting and
performing at acceptable levels.
4:09:55 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what chemicals are used to treat the
water that also get released into the marine waters.
MR. WHITE replied that some have a biological system that
performs more like a septic tank and some are treated with
chlorine, but the program monitors for that so there isn't an
additional load of chlorine going into the system.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what would be a comparable allowable
number of suspended solids or fecal coliform count in drinking
water, for instance.
MS. HALE answered that it's not appropriate to compare waste
water standards with drinking water standards. For a drinking
water sample, the limit for coliforms is zero. The water is
being treated for completely different purposes. These waters
discharged into a marine environment and not into an area where
anyone will be drinking the water.
4:11:27 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said that an exception is being made under
section 5 that says a person may not discharge sewage that has
suspended solids greater than 150 milligrams, but that limit can
be exceeded. He asked what limits they allowed to go to on a
milligrams per liter of fecal coliform basis.
MR. WHITE answered that these are the limits in place and ships
are not allowed to go above them, but equipment has limitations,
which is why the program monitors the activities. If these
standards are exceeded they work with the operators, whether
it's AHMS or the small commercial passenger vessels, to figure
out the problem. Many times they conduct additional sampling
after the system has been modified and the count will drop back
down to acceptable standards.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said under existing law a commercial
passenger vessel cannot dump an excess of suspended solids
greater than 150 milligrams into marine waters, but sections 5
and 6 of this bill would amend that to allow a plan for a small
commercial passenger vessel approved under AS 46.03.462(k), and
he is trying to figure out the maximum level of suspended solids
DEC would approve.
4:13:26 PM
MS. HALE answered the best practices management plans that will
be a result of this legislation will be detailed plans for each
ship addressing how that ship can operate optimally to reduce
the levels as much as possible. The plan, itself, does not have
limits, but staff monitors the sampling and the operation of the
systems on those vessels very closely, and work very closely
with the operators on an ongoing basis to continue to drive
those levels down. The website and their packets have a report
of sampling results from 2016 as well as on their cruise ship
website, and those provide an idea of what kinds of levels are
being seen in these samples.
CHAIR GIESSEL pointed out that five pages of detailed charts on
levels were in their packets.
SENATOR VON IMHOF asked how frequently they check vessels' waste
water.
MR. WHITE answered their staff consists of four people who work
hard during the cruise ship season. They spend a lot of time
reviewing and inspecting and try to look at every vessel at
least once a year. In some cases, they will observe them more
than once a year depending on past performance, responsiveness
to questions, and their willingness to work with them.
SENATOR VON IMHOF asked if it is a prearranged visit or a
surprise.
MR. WHITE replied that most of the time the vessels are notified
when they will ask permission to board be boarded. He added that
this program has been fairly successful just because of the
responsiveness of the small vessel operators that are not
foreign flagged like some of the larger ships. It's just timing
for them and they try to not be a burden to their normal
operations.
4:16:57 PM
CHAIR GIESSEL said the discharge standards were imposed in 2006
and she understands and this exemption for the small vessels has
been in place the whole time.
MR. WHITE said that was correct the exemption is from obtaining
a permit. So, they have data for 10 years in which improvement
is seen.
CHAIR GIESSEL said while they are exempted from getting a permit
they are not exempt from his monitoring program.
MR. WHITE said that was correct.
4:18:05 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said the statute sets a limit of 150
milligrams per liter of fecal coliform and there are comparables
for the City and Borough of Juneau, an Olympic-sized swimming
pool, and a large cruise ship, and asked what fecal coliform
levels are allowed by a large cruise ship, for example.
MR. WHITE answered that the same statute sets out the limits for
large vessels, as well.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said 150 milligrams.
MR. WHITE said yes.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI referred to page 7 and said the M/V
Columbia has a fecal coliform number of 64 milligrams, but then
the Matanuska has 170,000 milligrams, and asked if that was per
liter.
4:19:02 PM
MS. HALE explained the units for fecal coliform bacteria are per
100 milliliters. What Senator Wielechowski sees is the
variability they were talking about. When staff receives a
result that is high like that 170,000 they work with the
operator - usually the operator will call them right away - to
try to make tweak the operation and maintenance of the system to
improve those numbers. They have seen average results decreased
by something like 90 percent in fecal coliform specifically
since 2004.
4:20:12 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said the M/V Matanuska has one count of
8,900 and one of 2,100,000 and asked if that is raw sewage.
MS. HALE answered no. These systems are very variable, and
operations on the cruise ships and ferries are also very
variable. So, it really depends on what is going on in the
moment on the ships. The Best Management Practices Program has
worked very hard with the operators of the ships to reduce that
variability.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he was just trying to understand how
the Best Management Practices Process works and how the plans
are established, because the department has a tremendous amount
of authority. If you see a ship with 100,000 times the limit do
you mandate that they lower the fecal coliform levels or fine
them or what do you do, he asked.
4:21:26 PM
MS. HALE answered that the whole point of the Best Management
Practices Program and the plans is continuous improvement. They
work very closely with all the operators, and typically when
there is a high result, maintenance is conducted and operations
are improved; then a resample is taken. Typically, they see
vastly reduced levels, but it is an ongoing process.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI referred to the average result of 212,000
on page 7 and asked when they were taken. He remarked that some
tests are within the limits, but some are also "astronomically
higher," and he wanted some assurance that progress will be
made. Does she have secondary tests that show decreases?
MR. WHITE answered the dates on the far left-hand side of that
table indicate when those samples were taken. They work with the
small vessel operators and either the analysis of the results
isn't available yet or in some cases they will allow the
operator to do what is best for their equipment and then test
them when they come back the following year to see if efforts
have improved the system.
4:23:45 PM
CHAIR GIESSEL asked where the 150 limit came from.
MS. HALE answered is an EPA standard, and it is used by the
Coast Guard in its regulations.
CHAIR GIESSEL referred to page 7 and said the Matanuska had a
level of 170,000 on 7/20/16, but then on August 15, 2016, the
number was down to 8,900. She asked if that reflects a retesting
and improvement.
MS. HALE replied that is correct and that is what is seen
frequently as they work with these vessels.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI noted that the M/V Chichigof Dream tested
2,100,000 on 7/31, but then a month later and the test was at
zero. Obviously, they are capable of getting to zero, he said.
If it's totally discretionary and no penalties involved, he
asked why the state wouldn't want stricter standards.
MS. HALE answered they always want improvement and they always
want the best water quality coming from these effluents as
possible. The purpose of the Best Management Practices Plan and
Process is to continually encourage that improvement. Results
reflect that when there are high values - and this happens in
other industries as well - the industry is very responsive to
those values.
SENATOR VON IMHOF asked what causes the big variability.
4:26:29 PM
MS. HALE explained that waste water treatment systems are living
organisms and they respond to conditions in the environment. So,
small changes can sometimes create a large variability in
results. Again, the purpose of the Best Management Practices
Plan and Process is to continually work with the operators of
the system with the way those systems are operated. They respond
to changes in what comes into the system and then what is going
on in the vessel.
CHAIR GIESSEL thanked her and invited DOTPF to come forward.
4:27:34 PM
CAPTAIN MIKE NEUSSL, Deputy Commissioner, Department of
Transportation and Public Facilities (DOTPF), Juneau, Alaska,
said he oversees the Alaska Marine Highway System (AMHS) and
supported SB 3. They worked very closely with the Department of
Environmental Conservation (DEC) that includes training,
monitoring their systems, feedback on the results, and
corrective activities on those results. Another reason for the
spike in numbers that Senator Wielechowski was referring to
could relate to the footnote, which says that the hull time or
temperatures were exceeded on a local result. If a test is not
done properly or it sits too long, it can get worse with time.
So, you could have a bad sample. When DEC gets the report on
that, immediate action is taken to correct the problem, it's
retested, and perhaps a much lower number results immediately
after that. There are a variety of reasons for getting an
outrageous looking number on these samples.
4:29:11 PM
He said the AMHS operates a fleet of old ships, but not old
marine sanitation devices on those ships. Continual upgrades
have been done as part of the Best Management Practices
exemptions working with DEC. Of the five ships in the AMHS fleet
this applies to, all have had a major upgrade in the marine
sanitation treatments systems between 2009 and 2011.
CAPTAIN NEUSSL noted that this measure reinstates an existing
regulation that has been in place for 10 years and it has worked
well for that 10 years.
4:30:16 PM
Vessels are very cognizant of their discharges and know where
no-discharge zones are and don't discharge in port. Ships' crews
are trained to monitor that.
MR. NEUSSL corrected two things; one, that this regulation does
not apply to the Alaska-class ferries that are being built. Many
of the small vessels in the AMHS fleet including the Alaska-
class ferries are no-discharge vessels and collect their grey
water and black water onboard in holding tanks and pump it
ashore, and it gets treated through municipal waste water
treatment facilities. The fast ferries - the M/V Chenega, the
M/V Fairweather, the M/V LeConte, and the M/V Aurora - all pump
ashore.
The other factor is that the M/V Tustumena's replacement vessel
as designed will fall under these requirements; the current
Tustumena does not have enough overnight accommodations to be
held to the standard. The replacement vessel is an enhanced
capability vessel that will meet that standard of 50 lower
berths in the staterooms for passengers.
4:31:35 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if it is expensive to install holding
capacity in existing ships so waste water can be dumped on-
shore.
MR. NEUSSL answered that is not practical for the M/V Columbia
and the M/V Malaspina that go all the way down to Bellingham and
back, a two-and-a-half day journey. It is not possible to hold
that much waste water onboard. It needs to be treated,
processed, and discharged overboard. Smaller vessels on day runs
out and back can connect and pump ashore.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he assumed that a huge portion of the
run to Bellingham is not in state waters and asked if the waste
water is dumped in international or Washington State waters?
MR. NEUSSL allowed that the rules are continually changing on
that. AMHS doesn't travel in international waters; they run the
Inside Passage the whole way and they are allowed to discharge
in Canadian internal waters. The entirety of Puget Sound is
under consideration now to become a no-discharge zone. Having
been advised of that potential, they looked at their vessels and
found that they have enough capacity to hold the grey and black
water produced by the vessel on board to get into and back out
of port before they start processing and discharging. So, that
type of restriction can be accommodated. Certain areas in Alaska
near fisheries and critical habitat areas are no-discharge
zones, so they do have some limited holding capacity, but not
enough for the entire voyage.
4:33:27 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI remembered reading some months ago about
fish getting tested in Puget Sound and salmon having a huge
percent of drugs like Prozac in them. He asked if the AMHS
discharges are tested for drugs.
MR. WHITE answered no; they don't test for things not on the
list of standard items to test for. But as the DEC
representative said, some systems use chlorine and there are
instances of strange things coming up in vessel samples. It is
good to catch them and trace them back and correct that problem.
4:34:24 PM
CHAIR GIESSEL asked him to describe the collection process that
might skew sample results.
MR. NEUSSL replied that sampling of waste water systems has a
rigid procedure. The sample might need to be refrigerated so it
doesn't continue to grow and multiply colonies by the time it
gets to the lab to be tested, for instance. The AMHS has a full-
time environmental officer on staff that pays attention to these
types of things, along with air emissions and other elements for
compliance.
4:35:29 PM
SENATOR HUGHES said the fiscal note estimates a $3.9 million
savings by not spending 1 percent for art and asked if that $3.9
million will be spent for other things or will it actually be a
savings.
MR. NEUSSL answered that the construction contract for the two
Alaska-class ferries being built in Ketchikan right now was for
$101 million. So, technically by the statute, 1 percent of that
would have to be set aside for art work for those vessels.
However, there won't be a savings of $1.01 million if this bill
is enacted, because those vessels are under-funded. As part of
the effort to keep the construction costs within the allowable
budget, concessions were made. Items like life-saving slides,
radars, and some other essential equipment to have the ship
functional were listed as state-furnished equipment to be funded
from other sources and provided to the construction contractor.
So, the exemption of these particular vessels from the 1 percent
for art requirement would allow that money to be used to provide
the necessary equipment.
SENATOR HUGHES said she thought it was just good common sense to
use art work from the old ferries that will be retired.
MR. NEUSSL added that the M/V Taku artwork has been inventoried
and is in climate-controlled storage with the intention of using
it on the new Alaska-class ferries.
CHAIR GIESSEL asked what the cost would be to the fleet without
this exemption for the waste water.
4:38:45 PM
MR. NEUSSL replied that the cost is based on a 2009 study to
install an advanced waste water treatment system on the M/V Taku
that would meet the large cruise ship discharge standards and
the estimate was $1.25 million. A lot of factors go into that
cost. It will cost more today, and other vessels will have
structural differences, but potentially the most expensive is
the fact that an advanced waste water treatment system necessary
to achieve the much higher standards is a much larger piece of
equipment and it might not physically fit the space available on
the ships. However, detailed studies had not been done on those.
When these ships came on line in 1963 the regulations were much
less stringent.
CHAIR GIESSEL stated she would hold SB 3 in committee for future
consideration.