Legislature(2003 - 2004)
04/27/2004 08:15 AM Senate JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
CSHB 428(JUD)am-CIVIL PENALTY: MINORS & ALCOHOL
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MEYER, sponsor of HB 428, told members the
intention of this bill is simply to prohibit adults from buying
alcohol for minors. This bill will allow businesses to take
civil action against minors who buy alcohol or against adults
who buy alcohol for minors. He noted that under an Anchorage
ordinance, the Brown Jug Liquor Store in Anchorage is currently
using the method in HB 428. The Brown Jug waives $700 of the
$1,000 fine if the offender completes an alcohol education class
offered by MADD, STAR and the Keala (ph) House. STAR is involved
because it has found that adults who purchase alcohol for minors
are sometimes sex offenders. He noted this bill makes
participation in the program entirely optional. Some businesses
have offered to help enforce state laws but the state cannot
afford to have police officers at every liquor store, so it
needs more volunteer help to ensure that alcohol does not get
into the hands of minors. The Brown Jug Liquor Store in
Anchorage is the only business participating in this program but
it would like to see the program offered statewide. He pointed
out the bill has a zero fiscal note.
8:34 a.m.
SENATOR SCOTT OGAN asked if this bill could have a reverse
effect because a store could collect a $1,000 fine every time it
sells alcohol to a minor and then turn that person in.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER did not believe so because of the hassle of
going through the civil process for a $1,000 fine. He pointed
out that the Brown Jug Liquor program is participating to cover
its own costs, which it estimates to be $300. He added if a
business purposely sold to a minor, the business could lose its
license.
CHAIR SEEKINS referred to the language on page 1, line 12, and
asked what constitutes an order.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER deferred to the owner of the Brown Jug
Liquor Store for an answer.
CHAIR SEEKINS expressed concern that a minor could be lured into
a bar to order a drink and then turned in for a reward.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER was skeptical that would happen because bar
owners would be subject to serious penalties. He said another
state law allows businesses to take action against minors who
try to enter an establishment with a fake I.D.
CHAIR SEEKINS took public testimony.
MS. CINDY CASHEN, representing the Juneau, Anchorage, Fairbanks,
and Mat-Su MADD Chapters, stated strong support for CSHB
428(JUD)am because it will be an effective way to enforce the
minimum drinking age law. It is a civil measure that will
further limit illegal underage drinking access to alcohol,
thereby reducing youth involvement in alcohol-related traffic
accidents. In addition, MADD supports community policing and
brings liquor licensees into the fight to prevent underage
drinking. She noted she has heard from many liquor store clerks
who are frustrated that they can do nothing to prevent adult
males from purchasing alcohol for underage teen girls. This
legislation provides the same motivational tool as a bill
introduced by Representative Meyer that passed the legislature
two years ago. It will provide an incentive to store clerks or
bar bouncers by offering a financial reward and satisfaction
from knowing they are being responsible citizens. Their jobs
will become more of a career and those employees often get more
training. MADD believes this bill will deter adults from
purchasing alcohol for minors, particularly sexual predators and
friends and family members of underage drinkers who think they
are doing a favor for a minor.
MR. O.C. MADDEN, owner of Brown Jug Liquors in Anchorage,
informed members that an Anchorage ordinance allows businesses
to take a $1,000 civil penalty against those who order and
receive beverages from a licensee for the purpose of giving
those beverages to a minor and against minors who solicit
adults. He provides rewards to employees who intervene in those
cases and waives $700 of the fine if the offender agrees to take
an alcohol awareness class. He pointed out that virtually 100
percent of the minor offenders take the class, which has been a
very effective tool.
To address concerns raised by members, MR. MADDEN said a sale
does not have to occur for an arrest or stop to be made. Alaska
law currently prohibits an adult from ordering or receiving a
beverage from a licensee for distribution to a minor. Brown Jug
Liquors has made about 120 arrests or stops so far, and has
found that what the court has accepted to be an order is when an
adult takes a product at the request of a minor and places in a
cart for the purpose of giving that product to the minor. The
adult does not actually have to make the purchase.
Regarding luring a minor in to make a purchase, it is a criminal
offense for a licensee to knowingly allow minors into the
premise. Under AS 04.16.049, the licensee can stop the minor at
the door and the minor, at that point in time, is liable for the
$1,000 civil penalty so it is not beneficial for the licensee to
allow a minor to enter. He feels that law has been a very good
tool. After the Anchorage Daily News did an article on the
program, he received calls from other licensees around the state
questioning how they could replicate that program.
SENATOR OGAN commented that he believes one of the most
prevalent problems in the state is underage drinking.
SENATOR FRENCH thanked Mr. Madden for showing community
leadership in its role in this program, particularly in his
efforts to waive part of the fine in lieu of treatment. He asked
whether this bill should provide more stimuli for treatment,
rather than leaving that up to the licensee.
MR. MADDEN said that basically the way it works right now, when
a Brown Jug Liquor employee catches a person under the Anchorage
ordinance, it sends the offender a demand letter. He likes the
$1,000 penalty and the fact that treatment is not mandatory
because that provides a substantial hammer to encourage that
minor to get on board with the treatment program. If the minor
knows the outcome will be the same, whether he accepts the deal
or fights it in court, he will choose to fight it in court. If
that were the case, the licensee would not have the time to
invest in pursuing these cases. He has found that requiring the
educational component is not necessary because the minors sign
up for it right away to lower the fine. He noted that offenders
learn quickly that it will cost them more than $300 to get an
attorney to fight the case.
SENATOR FRENCH said his perspective is that not all licensees
will be as enlightened as Brown Jug Liquors and many may see
this as an opportunity to put cash in their employees' pockets.
He agrees that may have a positive effect in that employees will
be more alert to these kinds of sales. He said he would like to
see that the minors who get caught learn something other than
that it was an expensive mistake.
MR. MADDEN responded that right now there is no incentive in
current state law providing for a licensee to not sell to an
adult who is purchasing for a minor. The licensee is not
obligated to monitor areas outside the premise. At the present
time, a licensee can actually profit from wearing blinders. This
bill will encourage licensees to be more vigilant about what is
going on outside of their establishments and will address a
very, very serious problem. This bill has no enforcement costs
so the only costs involved are paid completely by the offender.
MR. DAVID LAMBERT, the owner of two dispensary licenses in
Fairbanks, stated strong support for CSHB 428(JUD)am. He said
currently, licensees can go after minors who attempt to buy
liquor for a $1,000 fine. That has been a great tool and
although his establishments have made no money at it so far, the
word is out that minors will get stopped if they attempt to
purchase liquor at one of his establishments. A $1,000 fine is a
high enough deterrent, and he would hate to see any changes to
that penalty. He believes that in Fairbanks, his two
establishments are the only two that are going after minors. He
said he does give incentives to his clerks. He opposes a
mandatory educational component because most establishments are
doing nothing now; reducing the fine will not make it worth
their while to do anything.
CHAIR SEEKINS asked Mr. Lambert what incentive he provides to
his employees.
MR. LAMBERT said the first time an employee arrests a minor, he
gives the employee $100. After the first time, the employee gets
$250. He noted that most employees do not want to make trouble
for the minor but he has told his employees that they are out of
jobs if they knowingly serve a minor. He said he has lost
business because the minors go elsewhere. He noted the biggest
problem he has seen is when a group of people come to his bar
and the minor uses the ID of another group member. He said going
after minors entering a tavern is a low priority for police.
CHAIR SEEKINS asked if he uses a program similar to Mr. Madden's
that includes the educational component.
MR. LAMBERT said he does not at this point but that is a
possibility in the future. He agreed with Mr. Madden that if the
legislature requires the education component and reduces the
fine, the licensees will not bother to participate.
MS. CASHEN told members that MADD advocates for treatment but
CSHB 428(JUD)am is not a treatment bill. This bill deals with
deterrents and intervention. MADD believes if it saves one life,
it is worthwhile. She said if this bill becomes law, it will
help to set in place programs similar to the one in Anchorage in
other communities, and eventually provide for an educational
component.
With no further participants, CHAIR SEEKINS closed public
testimony.
SENATOR FRENCH said he can see how this program is a win-win
situation in Anchorage with Brown Jug Liquors, but he is not
sure it will have the same benefit if no educational component
is required. He said that a $1,000 fine will be a big deterrent
for a minor but he would prefer to have some of that money
turned into an educational program that would make for a better
learning experience.
CHAIR SEEKINS felt some teenagers will learn from an education
class, others won't, and some will endure the class for the
benefit of a lower fine. He noted that the military prefers to
have 18 and 19-year-old foot soldiers because those soldiers
believe that consequences belong to someone other than them.
That same attitude sometimes prevails in the use of dangerous
substances with young people, due to the physiology of their
development, particularly males. He would prefer to require a
$1,000 fine and an education class. He said the committee has
heard time and again that 90 percent of the cases heard in the
court system have a drug and alcohol aspect to them.
TAPE 04-53, SIDE B
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER said he appreciates Senator French and
Chair Seekins' concern and that the same concerns were expressed
on the House side. He pointed out that because the program is
just getting started, he wants the bill to have enough
flexibility for licensees to work with their situations to get a
program going. If licensees abuse the program, the statute can
be tightened. He noted it is so hard to get licensees to pursue
action against minors because it is easier to make the sale. He
said the House decided to provide the program with enough
flexibility so that it can grow and come back to make changes if
need be later.
SENATOR OGAN said he believes some abuse will occur, but he
would like to get data on the amount of liquor that is sold to
minors on weekends. He bets that is a significant amount. He
suggested putting some coercion language in the bill or stating
on the record that the intent of this legislation is not to
allow liquor salespeople to coerce minors to buy liquor to be
able to fine them.
CHAIR SEEKINS agreed that is not the intent.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER noted that MADD will be watching this
program closely and that MADD wants the education component very
much. However, MADD is willing to forego requiring the education
component just to get the program started. He said he would
prefer to leave the bill as is and have MADD monitor how it
works.
CHAIR SEEKINS agreed with that approach.
SENATOR OGAN repeated that he would prefer that the committee
stated that its intent is not to entrap people.
CHAIR SEEKINS noted that all agree that is not the intent of the
sponsor or anyone who has taken action on this bill to this
point, as well as all committee members present.
SENATOR OGAN moved CSHB 428(JUD)am from committee with
individual recommendations and attached zero fiscal notes.
CHAIR SEEKINS announced that without objection, the motion
carried. He then called a five-minute recess.
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